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-   -   Continuing to try to fix the Buick... (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/358814-continuing-try-fix-buick.html)

Idle 08-18-2014 10:50 PM

A long shot but known to be a problem is the intake manifold gasket. These start to leak for some reason and all sorts of weird things will take place since the air/fuel ratio is always trying to correct itself.

A quick and actually safe way to find such a leak is to pick up a tool that looks like a long thin pipe on the end of a hose. The other end of the hose connects to a propane tank like the propane torches use. Start the engine and crack the valve on the propane tank so that a very small amount of propane is coming out.

Then wave the end of the pipe with the propane feed close to the intake manifold bolts and runners. If you hear an increase or decrease in RPM you have found a leak where the engine is sucking in air and, in this case, propane. Check all the vacuum connections in the same way. Any change in RPM is a leak because the additional propane screws up your air/fuel ratio.

Mechanics do this all the time. It sounds risky but I don't think you would have any problem with doing this in a safe manner. This also has the advantage of being repeatable. You engine may change RPM at odd times but with this method every time you move the pipe to the same spot the RPM will change.

INSIDIOUS 08-18-2014 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle (Post 3374792)
A long shot but known to be a problem is the intake manifold gasket. These start to leak for some reason and all sorts of weird things will take place since the air/fuel ratio is always trying to correct itself.

A quick and actually safe way to find such a leak is to pick up a tool that looks like a long thin pipe on the end of a hose. The other end of the hose connects to a propane tank like the propane torches use. Start the engine and crack the valve on the propane tank so that a very small amount of propane is coming out.

Then wave the end of the pipe with the propane feed close to the intake manifold bolts and runners. If you hear an increase or decrease in RPM you have found a leak where the engine is sucking in air and, in this case, propane. Check all the vacuum connections in the same way. Any change in RPM is a leak because the additional propane screws up your air/fuel ratio.

Mechanics do this all the time. It sounds risky but I don't think you would have any problem with doing this in a safe manner. This also has the advantage of being repeatable. You engine may change RPM at odd times but with this method every time you move the pipe to the same spot the RPM will change.

This should be moved to P&R since it will take hopey and prayer not get blowed up :D

Mölyapina 08-19-2014 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle (Post 3374792)
A long shot but known to be a problem is the intake manifold gasket. These start to leak for some reason and all sorts of weird things will take place since the air/fuel ratio is always trying to correct itself.

A quick and actually safe way to find such a leak is to pick up a tool that looks like a long thin pipe on the end of a hose. The other end of the hose connects to a propane tank like the propane torches use. Start the engine and crack the valve on the propane tank so that a very small amount of propane is coming out.

Then wave the end of the pipe with the propane feed close to the intake manifold bolts and runners. If you hear an increase or decrease in RPM you have found a leak where the engine is sucking in air and, in this case, propane. Check all the vacuum connections in the same way. Any change in RPM is a leak because the additional propane screws up your air/fuel ratio.

Mechanics do this all the time. It sounds risky but I don't think you would have any problem with doing this in a safe manner. This also has the advantage of being repeatable. You engine may change RPM at odd times but with this method every time you move the pipe to the same spot the RPM will change.

Interesting test, but I have no propane on hand... I already have the (improved metal) gaskets, so it's just a matter of time before I install them. I figure, though, that the smell of fuel is probably due to something else.

Mölyapina 08-19-2014 03:47 PM

Just hooked up a fuel pressure gauge I rented from AutoZone to the fuel rail, ran the car, got the fuel pressure up to 38 PSI (spec is 37-48, IIRC), and shut down... within 5 minutes, it had lost 2-3 PSI and was going downhill, so I guess that means there's a leak somewhere. I'm now alternately clamping off fuel lines to try to track it down.

Oh, and I noticed a mild oil leak that's consistent with the lower intake manifold gasket going.

Zulfiqar 08-19-2014 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jooseppi Luna (Post 3375183)
Just hooked up a fuel pressure gauge I rented from AutoZone to the fuel rail, ran the car, got the fuel pressure up to 38 PSI (spec is 37-48, IIRC), and shut down... within 5 minutes, it had lost 2-3 PSI and was going downhill, so I guess that means there's a leak somewhere. I'm now alternately clamping off fuel lines to try to track it down.

Oh, and I noticed a mild oil leak that's consistent with the lower intake manifold gasket going.

If thats a 3.1 v6 - I can gurantee that the lower manifold gasket is shot, replace and remember to use proper GM engine sealant or toyota FIPG on the blank space between the 2 gaskets. If you dont and use pep boys/autozone/FLAPS etc gasket maker then you get back to square one faster than a veyron accelerates from 60-100 mph.

The rich running issue is usually a bad MAP sensor or bad fuel pressure regulator.

Another tip - if you are changing the ATF and dont fancy bathing in it then undo the supply line for cooler - (small circlip) and install a hose on it and dump into a bucket. Start engine and allow it to empty the transmission pan for you - now you can get under the car and remove the transmission sump neatly.

If your radiator has the smaller type cooler line fittings then you can buy a barb for it from autozone etc - its about 3 dollars - shove a hose on it and do the same as above.

INSIDIOUS 08-19-2014 05:59 PM

Make sure you have that hose well attached, the fluid comes out at about mach speed.

GM has been trying to 'fix the buick' for decades now, what makes you think you can do it :D

Zulfiqar 08-19-2014 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS (Post 3375261)
Make sure you have that hose well attached, the fluid comes out at about mach speed.

GM has been trying to 'fix the buick' for decades now, what makes you think you can do it :D


the fluid exit speed is not that bad - takes about a minute for a gallon. There is negligible pressure as the hose is open on the other end (in bucket)

Why cannot American automakers install drains on most of their automatics.

INSIDIOUS 08-19-2014 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar (Post 3375270)
the fluid exit speed is not that bad - takes about a minute for a gallon. There is negligible pressure as the hose is open on the other end (in bucket)

Why cannot American automakers install drains on most of their automatics.

Not sure about JL's combo, but I did it on a Jimmy, and just starting it and shutting it down cost me real money in replacement fluid. ( was checking for rad sediment/blockage) (wasn't any :D )

TwitchKitty 08-19-2014 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar (Post 3375227)
If thats a 3.1 v6 - I can gurantee that the lower manifold gasket is shot, replace and remember to use proper GM engine sealant or toyota FIPG on the blank space between the 2 gaskets. If you dont and use pep boys/autozone/FLAPS etc gasket maker then you get back to square one faster than a veyron accelerates from 60-100 mph.

The rich running issue is usually a bad MAP sensor or bad fuel pressure regulator.

Another tip - if you are changing the ATF and dont fancy bathing in it then undo the supply line for cooler - (small circlip) and install a hose on it and dump into a bucket. Start engine and allow it to empty the transmission pan for you - now you can get under the car and remove the transmission sump neatly.

If your radiator has the smaller type cooler line fittings then you can buy a barb for it from autozone etc - its about 3 dollars - shove a hose on it and do the same as above.

My experience backs everything this guy said. I previously mentioned the MAP sensor. Did you check it with a vacuum pump and electric meter?

Your manual has a section for driveability issues, should cover rich condition and give a flow sheet of tests.

Mölyapina 08-19-2014 07:29 PM

OK, so with both the supply & return lines clamped, fuel pressure still goes from 38 PSI to 20 PSI in less than half an hour. My understanding from what I have read is that this identifies the injectors as the leakers -- is that correct?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar (Post 3375227)
If thats a 3.1 v6 - I can gurantee that the lower manifold gasket is shot, replace and remember to use proper GM engine sealant or toyota FIPG on the blank space between the 2 gaskets. If you dont and use pep boys/autozone/FLAPS etc gasket maker then you get back to square one faster than a veyron accelerates from 60-100 mph.

The rich running issue is usually a bad MAP sensor or bad fuel pressure regulator.

Another tip - if you are changing the ATF and dont fancy bathing in it then undo the supply line for cooler - (small circlip) and install a hose on it and dump into a bucket. Start engine and allow it to empty the transmission pan for you - now you can get under the car and remove the transmission sump neatly.

If your radiator has the smaller type cooler line fittings then you can buy a barb for it from autozone etc - its about 3 dollars - shove a hose on it and do the same as above.

But the guy at Pep Boys is great! He said his sealant works on any car!

JK. I'll be sure to use the proper sealer.

Holy cow, there's no drain plug? Seriously? What on earth...

Thanks for the tips!
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwitchKitty (Post 3375305)
My experience backs everything this guy said. I previously mentioned the MAP sensor. Did you check it with a vacuum pump and electric meter?

Your manual has a section for driveability issues, should cover rich condition and give a flow sheet of tests.

It's a MAF, and it appears to be in good working order.

Yeah, I've been working with the stuff in the manual while also blazing my own path. I am an independent thinker auto diagnoser.

INSIDIOUS 08-19-2014 07:36 PM

Clamped?

Mölyapina 08-19-2014 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS (Post 3375320)
Clamped?

To make sure it's not leaking out of some other part of the fuel system.

Zulfiqar 08-20-2014 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS (Post 3375302)
Not sure about JL's combo, but I did it on a Jimmy, and just starting it and shutting it down cost me real money in replacement fluid. ( was checking for rad sediment/blockage) (wasn't any :D )


so you did not actually catch the fluid in a container?

Zulfiqar 08-20-2014 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jooseppi Luna (Post 3375312)
OK, so with both the supply & return lines clamped, fuel pressure still goes from 38 PSI to 20 PSI in less than half an hour. My understanding from what I have read is that this identifies the injectors as the leakers -- is that correct?

But the guy at Pep Boys is great! He said his sealant works on any car!

JK. I'll be sure to use the proper sealer.

Holy cow, there's no drain plug? Seriously? What on earth...

Thanks for the tips!

It's a MAF, and it appears to be in good working order.

Yeah, I've been working with the stuff in the manual while also blazing my own path. I am an independent thinker auto diagnoser.


GM also use a MAP sensor, it would be a 3x1 inch plastic rectangle with a green connector on it and a vacuum hose attached to it, They are known to go bad. Cheap too. The MAF on that vehicle is tested by measuring Hz - and the two tests for it idle and high rpm actually show the correct working, replacement Delphi MAF elements are not the same design as original.

If you are seeing loss of fuel pressure with captured fuel in the rail - the only two points of leakage are the regulator diaphragm or the injectors - btw injectors are 'spensive' on this car. hunt the yellow pages for a place that sonic cleans and tests gasoline engine injectors.

If you plan to replace the lower manifold gaskets, along with the previous posts you also need to replace the oil pump drive gear O ring (I believe the 3.1 also has it) It lives under the manifold and causes vacuum leaks if its old.

INSIDIOUS 08-20-2014 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar (Post 3375554)
so you did not actually catch the fluid in a container?

I did catch it all.


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