Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Discussions > Off-Topic Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:54 AM
link's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 835
The Trouble With Tenure

The article below properly addresses part of a major hindrance in education, which is teachers who essentially work only to exploit their students as a means to a pay check.

The larger issue is that so many parents have no idea and perhaps no desire to encourage their children to excel. Lazy unproductive children become lazy unproductive adults, some of who become teachers, and so the process repeats.

I do agree that eliminating tenure or at the very least putting a much higher standard to permit it would be a good step. A 2nd step would be to increase teacher’s pay but only if they show they are the top, say 5% or 10% measured by their students test achievements.

It is a ridiculous that so many teachers have to essentially take a vow of poverty to do their job and endure it for years or decades before they can make a half reasonable wage.



DENVER — Mike Johnston’s mother was a public-school teacher. So were her mother and father. And his godfather taught in both public and private schools.

So when he expresses the concern that we’re not getting the best teachers into classrooms or weeding out the worst performers, it’s not as someone who sees the profession from a cold, cynical distance.

What I hear in his voice when he talks about teaching is reverence, along with something else that public education could use more of: optimism.

He rightly calls teachers “the single most transformative force in education.”

But the current system doesn’t enable as many of them as possible to rise to that role, he says. And a prime culprit is tenure, at least as it still exists in most states.

“It provides no incentive for someone to improve their practice,” he told me last week. “It provides no accountability to actual student outcomes. It’s the classic driver of, ‘I taught it, they didn’t learn it, not my problem.’ It has a decimating impact on morale among staff, because some people can work hard, some can do nothing, and it doesn’t matter.”

rest of the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/opinion/frank-bruni-the-trouble-with-tenure.html
__________________
Toyota is a leader only because their drivers block everyone behind them. Oh what a feeling.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:28 AM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Shocking. Guaranteed jobs doesn't give incentive to improve. Whoda thunk it? Only reason to have guaranteed jobs for a select few like the justice department to ensure that they aren't beholden to an individual, party, etc, etc for their job but not sure what else has good reason to have it still
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-20-2014, 04:30 PM
elchivito's Avatar
ĦAy Jodido!
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rancho Disparates
Posts: 4,075
No tenure here. Never has been.
__________________
You're a daisy if you do.
__________________________________
84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:12 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 29,525
I don't know who would really want to be a Teacher. Pay is Poor and in Public Schools the working conditions are appalling because there is no discipline in the Class Rooms anymore

Lets say a High School Math Teacher is still going to be a Math Teacher when the retire; pay raises are not good. What I mean by that is it there is not a promotion for your unless you move up to Administration.

School District Administration extremely bureaucratic and political. Who you know is more important then what you can do or how well you do it.

You can watch the Los Angeles School District Meetings on TV and what you see is that the try all kinds of things but nothing they do works for any but a few Schools.

In a way Tenure is sort of an award for being in continuous Combat and surviving the Students, Parents and the Administration and no other meaning needs be attached to it.

Think of the Infantry Combat Badge = Tenure; it does not matter if you were a good Soldier or not.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,355
The problem isn't tenure, it's getting high quality teacher candidates early in the process. In my experience, the best students are rarely education majors. Part of the reason for that is that there is very little content in EDU classes to challenge a serious student. You never see groups of EDU students in the hallways sweating bullets over whether they are ready for the exam the same way you see CHE or BIO students.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:35 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I don't know who would really want to be a Teacher. Pay is Poor and in Public Schools the working conditions are appalling because there is no discipline in the Class Rooms anymore

Lets say a High School Math Teacher is still going to be a Math Teacher when the retire; pay raises are not good. What I mean by that is it there is not a promotion for your unless you move up to Administration.

School District Administration extremely bureaucratic and political. Who you know is more important then what you can do or how well you do it.

You can watch the Los Angeles School District Meetings on TV and what you see is that the try all kinds of things but nothing they do works for any but a few Schools.

In a way Tenure is sort of an award for being in continuous Combat and surviving the Students, Parents and the Administration and no other meaning needs be attached to it.

Think of the Infantry Combat Badge = Tenure; it does not matter if you were a good Soldier or not.
As I have said to my mom who was a teacher, those who cannot do, teach.
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2014, 10:24 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by a View Post
As I have said to my mom who was a teacher, those who cannot do, teach.

Politely, and on behalf of many others, that statement is repulsive and speaks volumes of one's experience, insight and character.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-22-2014, 11:26 PM
davidmash's Avatar
Supercalifragilisticexpia
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 23,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
Politely, and on behalf of many others, that statement is repulsive and speaks volumes of one's experience, insight and character.
^^^^^^ this
__________________
Sent from an agnostic abacus

2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-23-2014, 01:03 AM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
Politely, and on behalf of many others, that statement is repulsive and speaks volumes of one's experience, insight and character.
While it might not be all encompassing, my experience has shown some truth to it. Should it change, my opinion will too.
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-23-2014, 08:16 AM
TheDon's Avatar
Open Discussion Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,212
Now that I'm a teacher I know what it's like. I'm pretty sure I don't ever get tenure since they did away with it. What I do get is low pay and students that aren't disciplined well. I'm hoping I can keep their attention with the projects I'm planning on doing.


I do wish the govt would spend more on education than aid it sends to other countries or heck the national defense fund. We need it, pay the teachers more, given the schools more money. I'm only allowed two reams of paper a month. Any more and it's out of my pocket! I found a half used ream in a random box in my room and I was ecstatic! I shouldn't be. But I was.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-23-2014, 08:57 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 34,592
Federal money to fund education is a small part. Mostly it is locally funded. The budget for education nationwide is a huge number. I bet it dwarfs the expenditure on foreign aid by at least 100 to one. Foreign aid is a nice target but last I heard it was less than 3% of the federal budget.
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-23-2014, 10:06 AM
Kuan's Avatar
unband
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: At the Birkebeiner
Posts: 3,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim View Post
As I have said to my mom who was a teacher, those who cannot do, teach.
Teaching is doing, and if you can't learn because you think the above is true then maybe you should teach.
__________________
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:52 AM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuan View Post
Teaching is doing, and if you can't learn because you think the above is true then maybe you should teach.
I've see a lot of teachers who teach the subject matter but outside of academia, can't actually do. IOW I'd rather be taught business from someone who is actually running a business as opposed to someone who can spout theory but hasn't shown to run a successful business. So no, I don't consider teaching a subject ability to do more than in the academic world. My mother was the first female agriculture graduate in the young country. The illiterate farmers grew acres of crops. She tried her best but after 3 years and many dollars later, gave up on her flower garden. A poor example but there it is.
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-24-2014, 02:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 11,272
I can see tenure at the University level. It allows a Prof to explore new theories without being held back by a Dean that does not agree with their views.

But at the hight school level? What does it accomplish? What purpose does it serve?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-24-2014, 03:22 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
I can see tenure at the University level. It allows a Prof to explore new theories without being held back by a Dean that does not agree with their views.

But at the hight school level? What does it accomplish? What purpose does it serve?
Or held accountable by the dean that doesn't agree with the lack of any real work? Just like why Venkman got fired from the college in Ghostbusters?

Keep a warm body in place because few worthwhile people will want to be around?
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page