Interesting argument....

"IT’S OFFICIAL: JOHN Deere and General Motors want to eviscerate the notion of ownership. Sure, we pay for their vehicles. But we don’t own them. Not according to their corporate lawyers, anyway."


We Can't Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership | WIRED

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Interesting, I'll try to follow this to see what PTO says...

Either way they decide, how far back would this go ? how far back to car manuf's have software ? early 90's ? Would the transistorized ignition on my 1982 Honda CX500 (motorcycle) be the same intellectual property (it performs logical operations)?

Would a 'renegade' manufacturer, one that doesnt require you to sign a software licensing agreement before purchase, gain market share from all the car people (y'know, all 20 of us who see what is going on and try to stop it ? (Becuase at this rate, I'm never going to be able to afford a Tesla...).

We've already legally solved the 'problem' of manufacturers trying to force people to only use manufacturer-authorized repair shops and parts. It is currently legal to 'chip' your car and still expect warranty work within the warranty period (so long as the chip didnt cause the problem). Why would a court deviate from this ? (becuase the manufs are throwing money at them and their lobbying staff...)

I dont have answers. just interesting questions about the process.

-John

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I saw this on fb but didnt want to get into it there.

I see it as a problem as a whole. Its their reaction to how much liability we pin on companies. In defense of JD:

1. Agriculture emissions have taken a gigantic step in regulation. If they didn't lock this down i could see the government holding them liable for what people may do.

2. People may hop up their equipment and run it too hot. Burn a valve, and return the programming back to stock, and do a warranty claim.

3. Free market will always dominate open source. You cant deny humanities greed. Look at photoshop vs the gimp. Or other freeware.

4. They spent millions in R&D. It would suck for a lesser manufacture just copy it. I was looking at a new cat excavator. It runs full throttle all day and sips fuel. They really have worked hard on this. Its so complex, most people cant do a better job, but will try.

I don't mind, because with them owning the software, there will also be free updates.

Some valid points, but points that have been covered again and again in the automotive field.

1) Emissions keep getting tighter all the time. The well established precedent is for manufacturers to design and build compliant equipment, and if owners later modify that equipment and take it out of compliance, the owners are liable. The automotive word is filled with this sort of thing.

2) This was initially a concern, but in short order manufacturers learned to store and read the control unit's programming history. Any unauthorized programming done in the past will show up, and warranties evaporate quickly. Yes, people find ways to bluff the history, and then manufacturers find ways to track/foil the bluffers. The game goes on, as it always has.

3) Not quite sure what you mean here?

4) This is true that copying would be bad for the originators. However, this is already covered under numerous other laws. Investigate and prosecute those who do the crime, don't restrict everyone else. Drunk drivers kill, but we don't ban all cars. Bolt cutters can be bought at any hardware store.

Another thing to consider is control. If they own the software, can they access it remotely? Can they choose if/when to let you operate the equipment? Of course, this isn't much of an issue right now, but what if it becomes one down the road? Will you only be allowed to operate your equipment for their "approved" uses? Sure, you bought the tractor to disc your field with, but right now you need to pull your brother in laws truck out of the rising stream, which isn't an "approved" use of the tractor...

I'm in favor of a free market, and the concept of ownership. Ownership conveys responsibilities, but also rights.

MV

No real discussion here. Just a few factoids....

The first auto tracking/spy software I know of came on the Caddy Seville in 1976. Owners were upset that it kept a record of the times they exceeded the then 55 mph speed limit.

GM products with OnStar can be shut down remotely, locked remotely, unlocked remotely and even the engines can be scanned remotely. You will receive a notice after each scan listing the items that need attention.

Tesla can update the software in your car remotely and this is considered a nice feature. When a software update comes out there is no need to take it to a dealer. Just park it somewhere with a clear shot of the sky and it is over in a few minutes.

All great points. You know im young, and have little exposure to this. Barely have had newer cars. But as a farmer, ive never approached this concept on that side. Once we started getting tractors with computers i stopped touching them.

3. We are better off not having access to the software. There profits will motivate more advancements in technology. If you compare photoshop to the open source linux equilavrnt, its far superior.

But maybe im looking at access more than ownership. And confused about this article as a whole.

And yes. They made us read 1984 in school for a reason. I guess we should keep that in mind.

Maybe i dont mind so much because if it ever gets in my way ill build my own ecu.

Have you seen intersteller? A movie.

All you got to do is attend an auction where they are selling non electronic farm equipment to see what is going on.

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Jim

Yep. Prices on analog farm equipment are rising rapidly. Forget your bucolic vision of the farmer in the straw hat and overalls out in the barn tweaking his Ford 8N. These new machines are so breathtakingly expensive that the average single farmer has no hope of fee simple ownership in his lifetime anyhow. 25 year loans are common. This is corporate monoculture farm equipment. Just another nail in the coffin of family farms.

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84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
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1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
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Curious. What do you raise?

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You're a daisy if you do.
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84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting

I suppose access and ownership are to be considered separately. In the automotive world, some of the biggest issues are being dealt with in the "right to repair" realm. Should/can manufacturers make their systems in such a way that no ne other than the officially sanctioned dealer can access them to perform repairs? If something goes out of spec, should there be a way for a general shop to diagnose that, by reading operation data? Can manufacturers make it so only their tools can communicate with their products? Ie; yes, any shop can work on the equipment, but only if they have bought their tools from the dealer? The fight is ongoing, and at times interesting.

From the consumer standpoint? Most consumers don't need, or want access to the working code of their equipment, be it farm or automotive. But they do like being able to go to places other than the dealer for repairs.

MV

$100 per horsepower for 50's tractors, they just keep going

Although with 60 year old injectors that have never been serviced man can they burn through fuel.

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Well at fifty hours total time my brother in law had to take his new massey ferguson farm tractor in for service last month .For some reason the device that burns off paricles or whatever would not go into the required mode to function. Personally I wondered if there was a european diesel under the hood and our fuel is not really good enough for it.

This was because his usage was not what was required they told him. So the dealer instructed the computor to engage it. My guess is he will probably have to take it in again after another fifty hours. The tractor ran very poorly once enough soot had accumulated. I also never knew the old tractors where rising in value.

There are quite a few older lower hour tractors around my neck of the woods. Newer than the fifties but not much more complicated as well. I should price one.

Have your brother-in-law check his owner's manual for a section on manually regenerating the diesel particulate filter. This is a DIY process.

Will tell him thanks.

i could see this eventually going the way of the japanese.buy a new car, plates are cheap but they go up every year this way you eventually come to the point of its cheaper to get a new car then to keep the old one.
so now the manu's are worried about keeping control of their software etc so they decide why not just lease all vehicles for say 5 yrs. at the end of that 5 yrs take the car back,hit em up for going over their aloted 12k miles a year and junk the car and the process starts all over again.this way they keep ownership,they control all service etc.these days everybody drives over 12k a year AND the best part.everyone is stuck into a perpetual loan.if all manu's did this they would force everyone into a lease. they would own YOUR a$$