advice on towing 4 tons
 

There might be an opportunity for me to tow a truck from Fresno to San Jose. 3 ton truck plus a suitable trailer behind a C2500 Suburban 6.5td. Years ago I towed a 450SEL on a trailer behind a V-10 Ram. Nothing to it even over the local Sunol pass. The planned route this time includes the more technical Pacheco Pass. Aside from keeping to a sensible speed, what's there to know about towing?

- Rated towing capacity is 6000 lb. Does this disqualify the tow vehicle?

- How do you figure out tongue weight in the middle of nowhere? I didn't think about tongue weight towing the 450SEL.

- What's a safe downhill speed? Stay with the semis in the 35 mph lane?

- Do I need more equipment than the Tekonsha thing under the dash? I don't recall doing anything with the brakes towing the 450SEL.

- What should I know that I'm not asking?

Sixto
MB-less

I ask all my 6.5 questions hear

GM 6.5 Diesel Engines | The Truck Stop

Pull the truck on the trailer far enough to move down the rear of the suburban a bit. The suburban will be overloaded so watch oil temp if you can, oil pressure (it will go down a bit if the engine is getting overstressed) and coolant temp. If any temps go above what you are used to seeing slow down until they come back down. Stopping is the problem so be sure your trailer brakes are strong before going anywhere.

Since you'll be overloaded if in an accident your insurance company might balk at paying so be cautious in your decision to go ahead with this.

Leave yourself a big cushion of space and time between yourself and the vehicle in front of you.

Balance the load between the two axles on the trailer and try to trim the trailer so that the floor of the trailer is level to the ground.

I usually look for about a one inch drop at the back axle of the truck.

Stop and check everything regularly. Feel for heat at the wheel bearings and tires.

If it doesn't drive right it isn't trimmed right.

We have had threads like this before.

No weight distributing platform hitch? 3/4 ton subies are rated more like 10,000# no?

Understood but how do I check that the trailer brakes are strong or working at all?

Understood as a concept but is there a rule of thumb like a time interval?

I read the words but what I understand is pay to have it towed :)

I suppose the trailer rental place will have one of those.

It seems suitable trailers are over 2000 lb. empty so the deal is way over the rated towing capacity. Do tow dollies have brakes?

Sixto
MB-less

should be a lever on the tekonsha brake controller.with trailer hooked up and moving push the lever.the trailer brakes should apply and stop your truck.if not there should be a wheel on the side of the controller to trim the braking effort,turn it up til you get braking from the trailer.

There's a spring loaded lever in front and a dial on the side. I should look for a manual online :)

Sixto
MB-less

YOu can activate the trailer brakes with the lever while moving around slowly. If the trailer has surge brakes this won't work. I'd probably not want to tow overweight with a trailer with surge brakes since you cannot activate them if the trailer starts swaying back and forth.

x2 on the above

-Good balance on the load
-Test the trailer brakes BEFORE leaving
-Watch your temps
-Drive defensively

If its that far over the tow rating i probably would not do it with that tow vehicle personally. Especially over any kind of pass.

Can the towee simply be driven? Can you take the bus down and drive it back?

If you plan to do it anyway i suggest you do it in the wee hours to keep your sanity with stopping distances and traffic.

I did this once overloading my van towing another van and i still managed to smoke my brakes and not stop for a broken down car suddenly in my lane around a corner inside a tunnel. Only reason i wasnt in a major accident is the fact that i started the journey at 1am and the roads were deserted. I was able to swerve effectively into the only other lane.

Let me get this straight:

You're asking if you; who by both your own admittance, and the level of questions you are asking, seem to have very little towing experience, should tow a trailer several thousand pounds heavier than the tow rating of the vehicle you wish to tow with, at highway speeds, for a long distance, and over significant grades?

Does that about sum it up?

If so, I feel confident in answering "No". No you should not. Aside from the damage you may well do to your own tow vehicle, think about the safety of the other users of the roads. It's not about can your tow vehicle drag something that size up and over Pacheco Pass, or if it stops nicely from 60mph on a straight and level road, it's more about how well both you and your combined rig (tow vehicle and trailer) can handle a sudden double lane change in the middle of a downhill curve at speed when the unexpected happens.

Please, think of the others on the road, and the hazards your decisions may present them with.

MV

Doesn't this make you miss the good old days when a 2wd SUBIE with a 454 had a GCVWR of 16,000# with an empty vehicle curb weight under 6,000#

The diesel is your enemy is this one.
-

And IIRC GM says you can add 25% if you keep the speed down, I think it was to 45 MPH.

That sums it up :)

One problem is there's no reasonable route between Fresno and San Jose without a pass, freeway or stretches I don't want to get stranded. I'm exploring the alternative of swapping the transmission in some random gravel lot.

Sixto
MB-less

That depends on your definition of reasonable...

If you were bound and determined to do it, I'd have suggested Little Panoche rd, and then on through to the 25. It's longer, and slower, but virtually no traffic and the hills are not as steep or long. Note, "Little Panoche", not Panoche. I think it goes by some other names, maybe J1?

MV

J1 from I-5 to the 25 goes over a 2000 ft. pass west of Panoche. Maybe it's more gradual. Terrible place to lose a radiator hose :eek:

Sixto
MB-less

It is a bit lonely out there, but less so every time I go through. More houses, more ranches, more wineries... Mainly, it is less steep. The tradeoff is that it is not as direct. The lack of traffic though means you can go slow, keeping it easy on yourself and your tow vehicle.

I guess the tradeoff is if something goes wrong on the lonely backroad, it is likely to be an inconvenience. If something goes wrong over Pacheco, it is likely to be a multiple car pileup that shuts down one of the major routes on/off of the peninsula and makes the evening news. Some folks will take their fifteen minutes of fame anyway they can get it, but me? I could sure avoid that spotlight.

What is it you are towing back? You mentioned a transmission?

MV

Ford E350.

Sixto
MB-less

I'd say "YES".

Weight the entire trailer. Put JUST the area the ball goes into. Take the ball weight and divide by entire weight and you want to be between 10-15%. I weighed the trailer and back it off the scales till just the ball area is on the scale, put a pipe ad support it on the scale. I'm guessing that the ideal weight at 10% should be around 800# and your hitch should be around 600#.

That far overloaded, I'd say the safe speed is 0 mph, You have to stop and that much weight might overpower the brake system which makes for a LONG day.

Depends. Does the brake controller interface with the trailer (electric brakes) or is it hydraulic?

I'd be asking for a tow company like U-ship or who can loan you a bigger truck.

Yeah..., generally I was wondering if GVWR was more of a serving suggestion. Many passenger vehicles are over GVWR if all seats are occupied by average weight adults.

Thinking out loud, weigh the tow vehicle alone then weigh the tow vehicle hitched but with trailer wheels off the scale. Wouldn't the difference be the tongue weight?

How come no one suggested performance brake fluid? Wouldn't Motul provide a margin of fade resistance if push came to shove downhill?

Sixto

Sure. If you add better brakes, better suspension, maybe even braided SS hose. All assuming the frame and the hitch isn't too weak, that is.

Take my Excursion for example. The later years had a bit more tow capacity in the later years. The change seems to be the larger bolts that attach it to the frame.

From this point I'm just being argumentative.

GVWR - the manual says max trailer weight with 3.73 gears is 6500 lb. With 4.10 gears it's 8000 lb. Swap the 6.5td for a 7.4 gasser and it's 10,000 lb. I've studied the option charts and there's a brake upgrade available but the brakes on there now are standard with 4.10 gears and 7.4 engine. It seems max trailer capacity on these terms is more about getting and keeping things moving than bringing them to a stop. Can a 6.5td with 3.73 gears safely tow 8500 lb? That's up to the driver, not the vehicle.

edit - but there might be beefier hitch to handle 8500 and 10,000 lb towing. I only checked brake and cooling options.

Brake fluid - let me rephrase. I'm going down a 6% grade at 65 mph at full GVWR (no trailer). I lean on the brakes to stop as quickly as possible. Would better quality brake fluid reduce braking distance or just be less likely fade?

Sixto
MB-less

In answer to your last question....neither, IMHO. The better brake fluid will not boil as easily if everything gets very hot. Of course if you have a long hill to go down you want to keep your speed under control by using lower gears not your brakes.

As far as your other observations, yes, you make good points. The mfgr has to consider warranty issues in addition to towing safety issues so that is reflected in the different towing capacities according to different gear ratios in the diff. The basic safety of the chassis and brakes as you observed is going to be the same in many cases, leaving the different towing capacities down to what they want to warranty.

One thing to consider is the transmission. Does this vehicle have a 700R4? 4L60E? 4L80E? Turbo 400? Turbo 350?

Does the transmission have an auxiliary cooler?

If it's a 4 speed auto, it's best to run in 3 on the hills. The shifting in and out of the OD under full power is really hard on it.

I've towed over loaded a few times and it's best to simply have a plan for emergencies, take it easy and give yourself plenty of space to maneuver and stop.

Engine braking increases heat in an automatic transmission more than intuition would lead you to believe. Real, real hot on long steep grades.

Think how hot your brakes would get. It takes the same amount of energy to slow you whether you use the brakes or trans.

And using your trans is not smart. Brake pads are cheap. They're designed to stop the car.

Using brakes on a mountain instead of the motor will have them smoking in minutes. I have tried it once.

And when you faded the brakes, how much would you pay for a functioning set as your truck is rolling out of control? :D

...And, you don't use the trans to slow the vehicle. Use the trans to keep the vehicle from gaining speed in the first place.

MV

actually yes.;)

6000#and the weight is 8000#. Brakes are questionable, tow hitch may not be up to it, transmission might not be up to it, cooler might not be sufficient. Distance is about 150 miles with a "more technical" pass. So, either upgrade all or take the risk. If you are taking the risk, some are able to sleep at night if something awful happens, some are not.

You've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

I would do it. But then I have experience driving heavy trucks, running overloaded, and driving vehicles that aren't remotely close to roadworthy (sometimes all at the same time). I've also been called a crazy driver numerous times by numerous people.

Odds are, you will get away with doing it. Chances are the tow vehicle will make it, although you probably shortened the life of the aging transmission. So 2 questions remain.

1. Are you financially able and willing to pay for it if you have an accident? If you are flat broke and could simply declare bankruptcy, life is good.

2. Are you emotionally willing and able to deal with the consequence of it? IF you plow into another person or vehicle knowing you were overloaded and someone got killed or hurt badly, can you live with it?

At this point in my life, I have enough to lose where I probably would get it U-shipped if I didn't have the vehicle. With my gas there and even more back plus my time and sundry expenses up and down, I'm not sure if I would break even, much less save enough to justify the risk.

As to the consequence of killing or maiming, well, that is up to each person's tolerance. I can say for sure that I would not have the wife or my dogs riding in the vehicle or anywhere close if I did it.

Anyone know how liable I would be if I were in an accident and the other party had a lawyer that found out that I was way overloaded?

When needed, I move my backhoe behind my 3/4 ton truck. My worst fear is getting pulled by the police. The trailer weighs about 5k lbs and the backhoe about 15k. The trailer is rated for 24k. The hitch is probably rated for 10 or 12K, maybe a little more. The trailer has eight tires that all hold 100lbs of pressure and eight electric brakes that will easily stop the whole rig. Getting pulled would probably cost a $k, easy.

If you do silly ****t like this, don't drive fast, especially not downhill. If you can't anticipate problems, hire someone who can.

If I got in an accident my insurance would dk me.

If I blew a tire I would probably go in the ditch.