Venezuela.

[barry12345]

Trump, Pence, and Bolton are pathological liars. The three of them are all too aware that people will die and actually have so far as a result. Now Bolton is talking about dealing with yet another south American country as well. Bringing them freedom? Then who is next if this is not stopped?

In Venezuela's case they have a population of about 30 million. They have built 4 million new houses for their poor. The poverty rate there has been reduced from 71 percent to 21 percent from 1996 to 2010. Report after report claims their situation is not as American foreign policy claims..

They want and need the social programs they have now. Like most countries they are required for countries to evolve into modern states. This is the age of people not corporations. Trump once again infers Americans citizens will get none of the needed social benefits... Programs give more freedom and security to all citizens. They also are the best way to moderate the effects of poverty. Increasing the birth rate as well.

One other thing of great concern at least to me. Some form of natural balances develop between countries over time. The regime change not only seems to destroy a countries developed place in the order of things.. It is also totally unknown what the results will be.

To me at least there is a lot of evidence it is a general failure. So the inclination to continue this approach. Does not really make much common sense.

For example is America in better financial condition today then it was twenty years ago? Is the population in better social condition? Can anyone point out where one of the illegal interventions worked out for the better?

Could the amount of effort and money expended have helped America? If it had been directed inward? I really suspect it could have with average more reasonable people in power with less corporate interference. I never went along with the industrial gutting of America for example for the reasons given. I was somewhat vocal in the early 1980s that it was problematic. There has been far too much information held back from the public. Things in my opinion of a very important context.

American corporate interests from the earlier years have been opposed to giving the public anything. Only in America do unfettered and unregulated corporations exist. The president in the early 1930s met serious difficulties from them to get social security and unemployment insurance for the masses. Even that long ago.

He only prevailed as he reminded them. Unless the population are given something at this time. The capitalist system they enjoy may cease to exist as it is. So they folded temporarily.

Remember also that unions evolved because the largest and most profitable enterprises of their time. Would not even allow ten minutes for lunch breaks. It took unions to get even that.

America's government has been doing the best they can at illegally damaging economies. Including it's own unfortunately. Some statistics indicate at a rate of six percent decline per year currently for the lower American middle class.

I hope that American citizens are not buying into the propaganda. The whole intent of course is to get the American oil companies back into Venezuela regardless of cost.

If the oil companies had to pay the cost they would just pay a fair price for the oil there. Instead the American taxpayer just gets saddled with an ever greater deficit to do the oil corporations bidding. Since whatever is finalized it makes no difference at the gas pumps. Only the oil corporations can actually benefit. What is almost certain is it will destroy the peoples progress in Venezuela's society.

Have any members looked at the corporate balance sheets lately? When is enough money enough? The industry would not have been nationalized there if the corporations had played fair. To start with.

Perhaps it is time to nationalize them in north America. Or at least put the controls on them that have proved necessary in other countries. For the protection of the country and the masses. Personally I think they have already become too powerful to do much of anything with.

I thought if the American citizens started peaceful demonstrations might be the only vehicle to get change. As the vote will not stop many things that are going on.

At the same time since they would be declared as against the national interest. There is a possibility of intentional violence being used against them. With a false pretext for it. True freedom of speech may no longer exist.

Is there a long term plan in place for the actual residents of America at all? I know as a Canadian I am very disappointed in two things that have occurred here in Canada by our government. Indicating to me that even here there has been a change in how our government functions.

Our Canadian government getting involved in arresting the Chinese companies chief financial officer in Canada. For America. Frankly it smells. Plus going along with America for a corrupt form of regime change in Venezuela.

The vast majority of Canadians do not like it. For the first I know of no reason a Chinese national residing in China. Can be subject to American laws. Unless she committed a crime inside America. Secondly there exists far too much evidence of how a country goes down the drain. When American intervention to give them freedom is enacted. Personally I hope both these issues are failures.

I have no interest in any situation that disrupts a countries right to exist in a reasonable peaceful fashion. That may result in many women and children being killed there. With their whole lives changed for the worse as an end result.

Last but not least. I am not anti American. Other than having a lot of issues with the policies developed by the American administrations. Or perhaps forced to follow. To watch Trump with all the constructed lying involved in his speech from end to end. About Venezuela drove me to post this.

The economic problems they have encountered there. Are a direct result of external illegal manipulations. I can also see a few members of their military and the self proclaimed puppet being charged with treason at some point.

[sloride]

Way to much rubbish to address in one post. How about I start with your assumption that poverty is on the decline there based on near twenty year old results, being 1996-2010 unsubstantiated claim.

[barry12345]

I do not have the history of after 2010. Other than the possible collusion to drive oil prices low worldwide. Started about then. It is reasonable to think that countries that depended on their oil revenue got hurt. So Venezuala as well as Russia would be two examples of countries with a massive income drop. Had that manipulation not occurred both countries would have done much better over the period.

Details of the collusion for low oil prices may have included the quiet supplying of either nuclear technology or physical nuclear weapons to the Saudis. If true this may become a real major issue down the road.

It also helped China substantially to see low oil prices. Yet at the time it was perhaps thought that dealing with China was either not a major problem. Or their overall development rate as a result was not estimated properly. More than anything. The possibility of missing the consequences with China perhaps did not occur. To the planners at the time.

I think a reasonable description of the times is being in a state of illusion. Where the realities do not match up well against the presence of the illusions presented. I chose Venezuela. As the most probable situation to be observed by the American public in reasonable detail. Not that I thought it would occur. Just more probable than most of them.

Their stores for example are well stocked with food. They do have a real issue with inflation though. Far worse than in north America. For various reasons high inflation in north America should not be ruled out at some point as well. As a real possibility.

Their need for humanitarian food and medicines supplies. When the incoming convoy consisted of two lighter trucks. Is just total pretext. In trying to sell something or yet another illusion in north America that may not exist in reality. The international red cross tends to agree. It is not needed. The image is being artificially generated for political reasons.

Same with the media picture of the large opposition rally. A crowd photograph actually taken in Brazil. Where someone neglected to photo shop out a famous landmark there in the left side of the picture. The average north American would not identify the large sculpture. . The published picture then becomes just one more fabricated illusion. Of a large rally that did not exist in Venezuela.

[t walgamuth]

I just read both of your long and thoughtful posts. Trump and his minions are truly frightening. They are systematically trying to destroy many parts of our society to achieve their aims.

Do you still like Trump better than Hillary?

[Grzpdlr]

Not a good history;

[pj67coll]

Yeah. Venezuela was a real paradise under Chavez. Fortunate that Maduro is there to carry on the good work. Don't be so damn stupid barry.

- Peter.

[sloride]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I just read both of your long and thoughtful posts. Trump and his minions are truly frightening. They are systematically trying to destroy many parts of our society to achieve their aims.

Do you still like Trump better than Hillary?

Yes, President Trump, has at least delivered on most of his promises. If the Dems are halted by 45 from delivering on their promise that everything will be free we may see some progress.

[sloride]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Yeah. Venezuela was a real paradise under Chavez. Fortunate that Maduro is there to carry on the good work. Don't be so damn stupid barry.

- Peter.

Ah, don't be so hard on Barry, he may be under the illusion that Trudy will buy the US in a fire sale if the Dems actually bankrupt us here.

[barry12345]

Tom actually neither person really. Both to me lack human values and traits that to many of us are important. None of us are perfect. Yet at the same time we have limits to behavior. Or at least the vast majority of us do.

Anyways I have a feeling the vote is no longer able to get directions changed enough. Mass peaceful demonstrations might help. Yet they might be violently suppressed. Under some fabrication as being against the national interest. I noticed this is a phrase that is being ingrained more all the time on purpose.

I am not an American although I thought old Saunders. Although still a politician had some values and might start a better trend. Yet that may just be another illusion. As I do not know just how much power to implement signifigant change a president really has.

Trump and his pathetic minions would restore mass poverty in Venezuela.. Other than grab the resources as cheap as possible. Remember they had huge poverty as a resource based country when the American Corporations operated there before.

It is a very old expression. The best plans of mice and men can become an issue. When America got heavily involved with serious collusion in reducing the price of oil. To hurt countries like Russia and Venezela plus other oil producers.

They seemed to neglect that it would make China a major force In the world much earlier than expected.. As they are the largest consumer of oil In the world. Plus have become the number one economy in the world already as a result. To add to the misery. The petro dollar may even be replaced as a result of that cheap oil policy.

I am trying to stay on Venezuela as much as possible. Not long ago one of the more prominent pathological liars. Stated that there was also terrorist groups in Venezuela.

I have to wonder if he was premature. American mercenaries and their weapons where gathered up in Haiti. In the last week was reported. Accurate or not I do not know. I quickly considered could this have been the early staging point for getting into Venezuela?

Simply because I could think of no other reason the American administration would want them there. Or could they have been bound for the second South America county Bolton has mentioned he want to deal with? Trump did mention he wants to deal with Cuba as well. I have no ideal of what to make of that particular statement.

I could go into some detail of why I think the American back room planners are doing many things. It would just be pure speculation though. I hope this is not just a decoy or distraction for something really serious.

Just too many things going on in far too many places. Also there are serious economic issues at home. That should be seeing more attention.

The economy is not self sustaining without constant increases in defict spending like Quantitive easing. Plus the constant need for low interest rates. The post industrial inertia is sagging more all the time. That inertia had some strength initially.

Yet as Trump proclaims. America has never done better. I have no ideal of what he is smoking. Although it has to be some pretty good stuff.

[barry12345]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Yeah. Venezuela was a real paradise under Chavez. Fortunate that Maduro is there to carry on the good work. Don't be so damn stupid barry.

- Peter.

No place is paradise. Nothing is free. Propaganda is insidious. It is used because it works. At my age I only care about the well being of people. Does not matter where they live.

Since I was very young. I always thought 100 years from now it most likely will not matter if we do the right thing today. It can matter if we do the wrong thing though.

If for example you feel the people of Venezuela would be better off under an American puppet. This may or may not be true. Recent history does seem to indicate it does not usually work out well. For the people actually impacted by it. For far too many it just destroys the life they have known.

Extreme difficulties have been created for the people there by outside forces. It may have even been illegal to do so. Certainly it has made many of their existances very hard. Do you really think that the people that have done this really cared about people? If they had they would not have done it.

First rule today is believe almost nothing officially stated unless you can personally verify it somehow. We also all have certain biases that we also have to set aside. To stay objective.

For example I have no issue with being called stupid. I knew the risks before starting this thread. We are all conditioned to some extent. It does impact the way we think.

The reward for helping others seems signifigent to us. We have learnt so much about people in the experience over the years. It has changed us personally. The people that live in Venezuela have been hurt already through no fault of their own. Personally I just have no wish to see it compounded.

[Botnst]

So many words!

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by barry12345

The people that live in Venezuela have been hurt already through no fault of their own. Personally I just have no wish to see it compounded.

Venezuela went down the toilet under Chavez long before Trump got anywhere near office. Your entire rant is nonsense.

- Peter.

[barry12345]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Venezuela went down the toilet under Chavez long before Trump got anywhere near office. Your entire rant is nonsense.

- Peter.

Time will tell I imagine. It actually would be a good thing if I were totally wrong. I actually would prefer it.

In a way discussion of many things are pointless. Generally the individual can really not influence anything. Although I do make choices at times based on what I perceive.

I frequently look at statistics and trends for example. Some I personally believe and others raise questions. If I were not still doing as much as I am. I probably would be happy living in a personal bubble.

[Botnst]

The former Venezuelan ambassador, a Chavista, resigned in protest over Maduro. He claims that Cuba and Russia have infiltrated clandestine armed groups into Venezuela to help prop up Maduro. The only international supporters are a rogues gallery including China, Russia, Iran, Cuba and Turkey. Even OPEC has abandoned the regime.

The people of Venezuela are voting with their feet. Around 3 million have left the country and are primarily in Colombia and Brazil. Around 600 military and police have deserted rather than enforce the laws preventing food and medical aid from entering.

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by Botnst

The former Venezuelan ambassador, a Chavista, resigned in protest over Maduro. He claims that Cuba and Russia have infiltrated clandestine armed groups into Venezuela to help prop up Maduro. The only international supporters are a rogues gallery including China, Russia, Iran, Cuba and Turkey. Even OPEC has abandoned the regime.

The people of Venezuela are voting with their feet. Around 3 million have left the country and are primarily in Colombia and Brazil. Around 600 military and police have deserted rather than enforce the laws preventing food and medical aid from entering.

Venezuela was a beautiful country when I was there in 1994-5. Before Chavez. The mismanagement has destroyed the land and impoverished the people. What they really need in my opinion is to be run by dedicated people and left alone.


If they need assistance, let the IMF or the Organization of American States, which are Spanish speaking peer countries, help them.