Greetings,

I am preparing to purchase my first mercedes. I have lusted after the W140's for several years and have located a 60k mile S320 that is in immaculate condition.

I currently drive a 98 Volvo S70 and as much as I love the car it just isn't made for a 6'3 275 pound stud like me.

Previous cars owned are cadillac devilles...but after the last lemon i won't touch another.

So ultimately I will end up with a 97-99 W140. I've read the posts about the a/c condenser problem so will try to find a model that has been replaced or obtain an extended warranty. Black on black is my preference.

I'm finding great deals on low mileage 97-99 W140's in the $25-30k range.

So I guess at this point i'm excited and ready to purchase but looking for any advise on issues to be aware of. I've appreciated my volvo's reliability so much I don't want to end up with another lemon cadillac, if you know what i mean. Thank you for any advice on this matter.

Regards,
Christopher

If you ask my wife, she'll tell you that I spend waaaaay too much time on this forum reading posts because I'm a Mercedes fanatic, and I can tell you that the overwhelming opinion is that the leaking evaporators are a problem on the early W140's (1992-1995-ish). It seems that it is not a problem on the later ones, and 1997-1999 would certainly fall into that category. It is not a guarantee that it won't go out, but it appears that they are not a problem.

In addition to evaporators, it seems there were a number of quality problems on the early W140's, but one would assume that the problems would've been fixed under warranty.

The early W140's had the same head gasket problem as other Mercedes that share the M104 engine. The head gaskets on the early engines leak oil from the head gasket, usually by 100,000 miles or so.

By the way, this engine, the M104 3.2 liter inline-6, was used in the W140 S320 from 1992-1999, the W124 from 1993 (300E 3.2, read my signature below) to 1995 (E320), the W210 E320 from 1996-1997. A 2.8 liter version of this engine was used in the 1993 300E (2.8) and in the 1994-1997 C280.

Certainly, the later W140's had significantly fewer quality problems, and it is widely held that the problems were fixed.

Apart from what I've mentioned, it is felt that the W140's is the last of the "build the best car whatever the cost" engineering mentality. They are believed by most here as the best S class ever built, but also the most expensive to own. Probably due to parts cost. It still wouldn't prevent me from owning one, though.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Thanks for taking a moment to respond. I just finished up reading 31 pages of posts about the w140. It sounds like I'm safe if I choose a '97-'99 model.

My other option would be to go with a E430 from the same model years...I had my heart set on moving back up to a larger car, however.

If it were me and I was your size, I'd go with the big S class.

If you go check out the dimensions of cars, i.e. at www.carpoint.com you'll notice that the W210's (E430) have nearly the exact dimensions as a Honda Accord. The difference in length and width is less than a half and inch.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Thanks for the dimensional insight...

When I review my options for a large car; i.e.

-Lincoln
-Cadillac
-M B
-Crown vic
-7 series BMW
-Lexus

1. BMW, Cadillac are not reliable.
2. Lincoln...may be in the same boat as cadi.
3. Crown Vic...Arizona police are dying in these things when they explode
4. Lexus should be a quality car but I'm not real passionate bout them.
5. That leaves the MB.

I guess my next question Does anyone know of a decent MB indie in Tucson, AZ? I visited MB of Tucson and they wouldn't give me any information on what takes place during a maintenance interval.

I live in Southern California, so I can't help you with shops in Tucson.

I did a search in the Good Shops forum for Tucson, and nothing came up.

I did a search for Arizona, and found these results:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=228172&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

On the list of items on your list, the only car I would consider other than the MB is the Crown Vic. I'd have to get either the Police Interceptor package, or a Crown Vic fitted with their "sports package", whatever they may call it. I travel quite a bit, and I can tell you that the cars are durable. I've been in numerous taxi's with around 400,000 - 500,000 miles, but the chasis sure creaked and groaned a lot. The exploding gas tank issue sure would bother me, too. There is also the Mercury Marauder that is now or soon to be available.

I am such a fan of Mercedes vehicles that the only large rear wheel drive sedan I would buy would be a W140.

When I was in New York in July, I hired a car to drive me back to La Guardia from my hotel in upper-midtown on the east side of Manhattan. When you get a taxi, you never know what your going to get. It could be a clean, quiet car, or it could be an old, tired car with high mileage, beat-up rear seat, and an out-of-balance tire on the rear axle. When you hire a private car, it's a little more money, but you get the ubiquitous black Lincoln Town Car with ice cold a/c and black leather seats. When the car showed up, lo and behold it was a W140 S500, black with black leather. The car had over 300,000 miles and looked and drove like a brand new car. Smooth and quiet. Not a shake, rattle, creak, or groan from the chasis.

Regarding engine sizes, why not consider an S500 or S420?

Check out this page on carpoint.com:

http://carpoint.msn.com/vip/engines.aspx?modelid=1926&src=vip

You get much more power, and there is very little penalty in gas mileage.

The S320 gets 17 / 23.
The S420 gets 15 / 22.
The S500 gets 15 / 21.

The difference is fuel economy is surprisingly so negligable, that I would get the S500, budget allowing.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Have you seen the web page on the MB USA website that shows you the info on the W140 S-class sedans?

I have the page keyed up on the S320. You can switch to other S-class models by selecting them on the left side of the page.

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/overview/overview_engine.jsp&yearModelCode=98_S320&class=98_S&rnav=012345678&menu=5_2

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about buying an early or late model W140 and the arguments about buying a W126 (1981-1991 S class), instead. My post dealt not with the pros and cons of a W140 vs. a W126, but rather the pros and cons of an early model W140 vs. a late model W140

I posted the following:

"I've always thought how I'd love to own a W140 car, and noticed how everyone (including me) has pointed out how many problems the early W140's had, and therefore should be avoided.

I wonder how good this advice is, though.

If you think about it, from what I've read from Gillybenztech's posts, MB had to implement a comprehensive quality control program on these cars, and there were a ton of recalls with parts updated, changed, etc.

The only thing that the factory probably left alone on these cars would likely be the a/c evaporator, but still I'd be willing to bet that the original owner probably was forced to pay for its replacement out of pocket after the warranty expired.

Taking this into consideration, it's reasonable to believe that the problems have already been worked out of these cars in the first couple of years.

With the exception of the liability of the evaporator going out (if it's the original), what quality problems would be left with these early 92-95 W140's?

I know the argument can be made that even if the 'kinks' have been worked out, most of these cars are over 100,000 miles, and many of the original parts like motor mounts, suspension components, sensors, etc. are coming up to their normal replacement cycle. And everyone here has read of the high cost of parts for these W140's. But still, the argument here is the same as with other fairly used Mercedes vehicles - The cars have depreciated so much that the cost of future parts replacement is still less than the amount a newer W140 would incur under its normal projected depreciation.

And I don't think I need to remind everyone that depreciation (not maintenance, repairs, insurance, gasoline, etc.) is your single biggest cost of ownership, in any car.

The historical average depreciation of cars in general is a 50% decline in value every 4 years.

A used 1998 S320 that you'd pay $40K for would be worth $20,000 in 4 years.

A used 1992 S320 that you'd pay $18k for would be worth $9k in 4 years.

By buying the '92, you'd lose $9k in depreciation, and by buying the '98, you'd lose $20k in depreciation - an $11k difference!

How much money in repairs can you spend in 4 years to equal the $11,000 difference? (I'm not including the maintenance expense because the maintenance schedules are the same).

If it were your money, would you be "safe" and buy the '98 model figuring that it'd be cheaper to own in your next 4 years of ownership, or would you buy the '92 model, estimating that your cost of repairs in the next 4 years would be less than $11,000?

If it was my money, I'd buy the early model car."

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Paul,

You make a very compelling argument here.

My concern would be opportunity cost.

Assuming the '98 has had most of the W140 issues worked out, there would be a lower frequency of 'unscheduled' maintenance. In my line of work (communications networks) there is precious little time between the moment when a comm link goes down and a doctor is chewing my rear becuase he can't do remote diagnosis of a patient from 1000 miles away. This alone would be worth the depreciation cost.

Now the other great thing you point out is the minimal mileage penalty between a S320, S420, and S500. Thank you for this great information. I went down the S320 route for a similar reason to the one stated above...the 320 motor (m104?) is like the T5 in the volvo...it's been around so long that by now it's bulletproof, save the occasional head gasket.

Thank you very much for the information you have shared here. I look forward to being a member of this unique community very soon and certainly look forward to sharing any information i can gather!

Regards,
Christopher

Paul,

I just remembered something I was going to ask...

When I purchased my Volvo I was presented a maintenance schedule. It's very detailed and shows, for example, at 10,000 miles these 30 tasks are performed, etc.

Can you recall anywhere on the net where the equivalent might exist for the S class? I went to Mercedes Benz of Tucson and they refused to provide this information.

C.

I can't believe the dealer wouldn't help you with the maintenance schedule. All MB's come with a very, very detailed maintenance booklet that tells you exactly what to do every 7,500 miles, and there is a page for every maintenance interval where the dealer or shop would stamp the page. This book is as good as gold when you are buying or selling a used Mercedes as it is the best proof for maintenance. These books have to be available for sale. I'd go back to the dealer and try again. If the car you buy doesn't have one in the glove compartment, I'd go out and buy one.

Anyway, following are the maintenance schedules for my car. Since the S320 has the same engine, I'm sure it all applies. The only additional things an S320 may or may not have are a pollen / dust filter replacement for your HVAC, fluid replacement for the self-levelling suspension (should the car have it).

Just know that all the maintenance on MB's is carried out in mileage, except for two items, which are carried out in time:

1. Flush and refill brake fluid every two years.
2. Flush and refill radiator fluid every three years. Also MB fluid is a yellow-ish color, not green. It has a different chemical make-up than regular green "prestone-style" fluid, which you shouldn't use. It is only slightly more expensive that regular fluid anyway.

7,500 MILE SERVICE (Also due at 22,500 / 37,500 / 52,000 miles)
Change Engine Oil and Filter.
Inspect Brake Pads and Discs
Set Tire Pressure and Rotate Tires
Top Off All Fluids
Inspect Exhaust System
Check Operation Of Lights and Accessories
Inspect Suspension and Steering Components
Road Test
Function Check A/C & Heating System

15,000 MILE SERVICE (Also due at 45,000 / 75,000 / 105,000 miles)
Includes 7,500 Mile Service Plus:
Inspect, Rotate, and Balance Wheels
Inspect Wipers and Washer System
Adjust Parking Brake
Lubricate Door Hinges
Inspect Belts and Hoses
Clean Antenna Mast
Inspect and Lube Throttle Linkage
Check Tire Condition
Road Test

30,000 MILE SERVICE (Also due at 90,000 / 150,000 miles)
Includes 15,000 Mile Service Plus:
Replace spark plugs
Automatic Transmission Filter and Fluid Change
Retighten Steering gear Bolts
Replace Air Filter
Inspect Drive Shaft Flex Disc for Wear
Inspect Parking Brake Cables
Inspect Body For Paint Corrosion

Regarding your point of "lower frequency of unscheduled maintenance". This maintenance issue has been discussed before on this site, but it's a better idea to separate maintenance and repairs. I think what you are referring to we would call repairs. The maintenance of a car with 30,000, 60,000, 120,000 or even 210,000 miles is really the same. You are following the exact same maintenance schedule and changing the same fluids and filters, plugs at the same interval.

The difference with higher mileage cars is that you have additional repairs to make, like replacing belts and hoses which degrade over time, fixing or recharing a/c issues, replacing suspension componenets like bushings, struts, shocks, etc.

Last, about the M104 engine being a tried and true engine is correct, but the V8's available in the W140 are also very, very tested over time and are at least equally as good. The M119 V8 engine came out at about the same time as the M104 (1992) and lasted until 1999, also the same as the M104. You shouldn't rule out the V8's for this reason.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Between a 98 W202 or W140, you'd probably end up spending the same in maintenance, so from one stud to another "get the extra space of the W140"!!!!!!!!

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"If I teach you half of what I forgot, you'll still have enough to compete with most people"

Yeah, Christopher, I'd only consider a W140 for a man your size.

My family is made up of big people. I'm the shortest and thinnest at 6'1" and 180 lbs.

My brother is 6'2" and about 325 lbs.

My father was 6'5" and about 275, built like a Mac truck. His shoulders and upper torso were huge. Very intimidating.

I have only two male cousins - one is 6'6" and about 250 lbs., and the other is 6'7" and about 235 lbs.

My dad owned a W126 S class sedan, put 399,000 miles when he died, and it was one of the few cars he felt comfortable in. He would barely tolerate being in my W124, which has almost the same dimensions as a current W210 E430.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Cwolff,
Try:
Keith @
Keith Brooks' European Repair
2440 N. First Ave.
520-321-1640

or

Frank @
Diesel Master
2845 N Tuttle Ave
520-620-0220

Both excellent indie shops, both appreciate people who know/learn about their MBZ. Cheers from Tucson, Andrew Seidel

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86 560SEC
85 500SEC Lorinser
83 300D Turbo
75 240D

The W140 is the only car that i scoot the seat all the way back.....And then have to scoot it back up. As a 6'2" 252 pound man, it is easy for me to get comfortable in other peoples cars, all i have to do is: let the seat the all the way back. and adjust the steering wheel down. However, in the W140, i cant reach the pedals with the seat all the way back!

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"If I teach you half of what I forgot, you'll still have enough to compete with most people"