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  #1  
Old 10-27-2002, 12:04 PM
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Angry Russians

Well.. they ended the hostage crisis, but in a shameful way.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021027/wl_nm/russia_siege_dc_60

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MOSCOW (Reuters) - Only one of the hostages in the Moscow theater siege died of gunshot wounds, a senior medical official said Sunday, indicating that many dozens may have been poisoned by the gas used to knock out the guerrillas.

Asked how many of the victims died of the effects of gas used to paralyze the Chechen guerrillas holding more than 800 people hostage, Andrei Seltsovsky, chairman of the health committee of the city of Moscow, replied: "Of the 117 dead, one died of a gunshot wound."

Earlier, Health Ministry officials quoted by Russian news agencies put the death toll among hostages at 118.

The Kremlin and medical experts were silent Sunday about a television report that Russian special forces who stormed the theater in the early hours of Saturday had killed hostages when they used a sleep-inducing gas.

NTV television reported two hostages -- a Dutch national and a Kazakh national -- had died from gas poisoning.

The unidentified chemical was so powerful that the Chechen suicide fighters who had been filmed during the siege toying with detonators attached to explosives strapped to their waists had no time to set them off.

London-based security expert, Michael Yardley, said he believed the gas used was BZ, a colorless, odorless incapacitant with hallucinogenic properties, first used by the United States in Vietnam.

He said the symptoms displayed by the hostages in Moscow -- inability to walk, memory loss, fainting, heartbeat irregularities, sickness -- all pointed to BZ. According to the U.S. army the side effects last 60 hours, Yardley said.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2002, 02:13 PM
Lebenz's Avatar
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A predictable end to a terrible situation. It was far better outcome than having the “terrorists” explode the theater....
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2002, 03:20 PM
resqguy
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With 911, the Russian theater, and the DC sniper just the name a few, are radical Muslims at war with the rest of the world?

What is going on here? I wish the peaceful Muslim countries would speak out against all this killing and become part of the solution. If they are speaking out and we are not hearing them they need to speak louder.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2002, 03:20 PM
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Unhappy Life?

On September 11, 2001 we where preparing to shoot down Flight 93 before it crashed! That would have been 4-5 hijackers dead at a cost of 100+ innocent people to prevent even greater suffering!

The unbelievably sad truth is that history is replete with the lesson that cruelty is never vanquished but simple superceded by greater cruelty.

The Russians are already rounding up relatives and associates of the dead Chechens and their hard time is only beginning. The most likely scenario is they will be tortured to death, as will be all those who they in turn give up!
That’s an inherent flaw in the martyrdom method of political discourse if your not careful you might end up with your opponent truly testing the strength of your convictions.
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2002, 03:32 PM
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Question ??????

Peaceful Muslim countries? Is there one?

Theocratic Islamic Dictatorships (all of Pan-Arabia!) are at war with every human being under their control.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2002, 04:18 PM
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I think, given the circumstances, they did quite well.
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2002, 04:55 PM
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That is only 11-12% collateral damage. Not bad considering 20% is acceptable. Granted it is more than most folks care to see, but way better than 1,000 hostages and 100 hostage takers dead.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2002, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by resqguy
I wish the peaceful Muslim countries would speak out against all this killing and become part of the solution. If they are speaking out and we are not hearing them they need to speak louder.
Funny thing is.. they ARE speaking out against it. But the US's media is noticably biased on one side and thats why you don't hear it in the mainstream press. Do a search online for world news and you will see that they are speaking against it. BTW.. I don't believe the DC sniper did all this crap for his religion.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2002, 07:43 PM
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Better than Waco.
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2002, 04:27 PM
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What choice did they have? They say an ugly situation, and made their best choice as they saw it. They need our support just as we need theirs when dealing with these bas***ds.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2002, 06:00 PM
MedMech
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Originally posted by beevly
What choice did they have? They say an ugly situation, and made their best choice as they saw it. They need our support just as we need theirs when dealing with these bas***ds.
YIP and I think they sent their message loud and clear, which is the only way to do it. Negotiating with terrorist is out of the question.
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2002, 11:32 PM
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Tough situation. I think it was actually a pretty creative solution for the problem at hand. I just don't think it was exectued as smartly as needed. From what I've been hearing what really messed things up was the secrecy about exactly what kind of gas they were using and not having enough phsicians on alert. Many of the hostages were killed by not being properly treated or not treated soon enough.

Don't know all the details about the Chechens but I do know that there country has been bombed into a wasteland by the Russians. It stems from them wanting independence from the Soviet Union an them (Russians) not wanting to give it to them.

Peaceful Muslims? I agree that I think the press doesn't give much coverage to this. There have been numerous protest on our policy towards Iraq both within the US and in Europe that have never been covered.

I don't understand how people label the press as the "liberal press." With the consolidation of media outlets, there are fewer and fewer voices of opinion/opposition. The largest media outlets are all owned by people who give lots of money to those in power. My obervation has been that the mainstream press seems to operate more like the governments propaganda machine.
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2002, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tkd_M119
Tough situation. I think it was actually a pretty creative solution for the problem at hand. I just don't think it was exectued as smartly as needed. From what I've been hearing what really messed things up was the secrecy about exactly what kind of gas they were using and not having enough phsicians on alert. Many of the hostages were killed by not being properly treated or not treated soon enough.

Don't know all the details about the Chechens but I do know that there country has been bombed into a wasteland by the Russians. It stems from them wanting independence from the Soviet Union an them (Russians) not wanting to give it to them.

Peaceful Muslims? I agree that I think the press doesn't give much coverage to this. There have been numerous protest on our policy towards Iraq both within the US and in Europe that have never been covered.

I don't understand how people label the press as the "liberal press." With the consolidation of media outlets, there are fewer and fewer voices of opinion/opposition. The largest media outlets are all owned by people who give lots of money to those in power. My obervation has been that the mainstream press seems to operate more like the governments propaganda machine.

Well said!
Also.. about the Chechnya thing... Russia will not give it up because they want their oil.
Another point I want to make.. Russia ****ed up by not wanting to tell the physicians what gas they used!!!!
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2002, 12:34 AM
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Snibble, sorry, you are wrong. In 1994 I read in one of Richard Marcinko's books (the Rogue Warrior series) that Muslims declared war on Christianity, but nobody in the US wanted to admit it (who, again was the president at that time???). I was raised in Europe, and yes, Americans do not hear everything. For instance I wonder, how come we did not see TENS of THOUSANDS Muslims celebrating 9/11 ??? That was confirmed by several of my friends in Europe.

As to the "liberal media"- well, one of the analysts (a democrat, by the way) reasearched the topic and concluded that of the news programs available in the US only Fox News has anything approaching a balance between liberals and conservatists. ALL of the other major networks programs have liberal (not always meaning "bad") comentators outnumber the other side by at least 4 to 1. How that cannot be perceived as biased, I don't know. I just cannot stop laughing remembering Clinton crying that Rush Limbaugh has a complete access to people, every day and he does not. Can anyone imagine media refusing to air any of Clinton's speeches, like they did with Bush Jr.??
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  #15  
Old 10-30-2002, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Piotr
Snibble, sorry, you are wrong. In 1994 I read in one of Richard Marcinko's books (the Rogue Warrior series) that Muslims declared war on Christianity, but nobody in the US wanted to admit it (who, again was the president at that time???). I was raised in Europe, and yes, Americans do not hear everything. For instance I wonder, how come we did not see TENS of THOUSANDS Muslims celebrating 9/11 ??? That was confirmed by several of my friends in Europe.

As to the "liberal media"- well, one of the analysts (a democrat, by the way) reasearched the topic and concluded that of the news programs available in the US only Fox News has anything approaching a balance between liberals and conservatists. ALL of the other major networks programs have liberal (not always meaning "bad") comentators outnumber the other side by at least 4 to 1. How that cannot be perceived as biased, I don't know. I just cannot stop laughing remembering Clinton crying that Rush Limbaugh has a complete access to people, every day and he does not. Can anyone imagine media refusing to air any of Clinton's speeches, like they did with Bush Jr.??
Piotr.. how am I wrong? with what? I neverheard of this person Richard Marcinko so I don't know how trust-worthy he is with what he writes. I was also reffering to Chechnya's problems.. and not about "holy wars". I also try not to get into "religious debates" because it will spark anger since so many of the members I have noticed are sensitive. So lets just stick to the subject which was how Russia conducted its "Rescue operation" which was a joke in how it was handled. I don't think there is anything else I or anyone else can say about it other than that they goofed and goofed big time.
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