Infiniti forum...

[blackmercedes]

I surfed onto a Nissan/Infiniti forum this evening. Wow. Running a W140 is expensive? A 1990-1994 Q45 can sure be a money pit!

Before anyone gripes about their 10-12 year old MB again, they should check out some of the other marques forums. It's durned enlightening...

What is the address to the infininty forum you were on>

[blackmercedes]

I can't for the life of me remember the link. Someone else had it in a post, and I clicked on it.

Our URL is:

http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.net

You have to go to the forums page to get to our Infiniti section.
Be prepared for a spirited debate.

Fred...

[blackmercedes]

Found MY MB-Shop post on the Infiniti forum, and the ensuing posts. Most were quick to defend Infiniti and slam MB as being expensive to maintain.

Well, I never said that a W140 was cheap to look after. Often, MB owners think they are the only luxury car owners out there that have to drop big bucks to keep their 10-12 year old cars running in top form. Well, it's not true. Check through the Infiniti posts, and you'll find plenty of Q45 owners spending HUGE sums to keep their older cars fully operational.

My point was not that one brand is better than the other, but that it would seem that most older flagship luxury cars are VERY expensive to own. People are often fooled into buying one thanks to low resale prices, and then are shocked by parts and labour costs for both minor and major repairs.

W140's may have faulty evaporators (some), but they don't have "active" suspensions that fail, and so on. Each marque seems to have it's own quirks...

(and the posts about the relative costs of used engines make NO sense to me...what does that have to with anything?)

http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.net/vbulletin225/showthread.php?threadid=13692

I dont think much slamming as ocurred just pointing out stuff.
Dont wanna start a flame war or anything.
But u guys are welcome to come and post your opions.

Fred...

[That Guy]

That forum must be some hot stuff. My work internet has denied access to it! What are they doing on that forum that would make the material so inappropriate that I can't access it from work? No problems with the hot babes thread... this is odd.

We had a server outage due to the weather.

Fred...

[speedy300Dturbo]

But the new MB's have active suspensions and countless other electronic and computerized doodads that may fail in time. Too early to tell now, but in 10-15 years, it will be interesting to see how they hold up.

[blackmercedes]

Originally posted by speedy300Dturbo
But the new MB's have active suspensions and countless other electronic and computerized doodads that may fail in time. Too early to tell now, but in 10-15 years, it will be interesting to see how they hold up.

I know. One reason I kinda like my "simple" (compared to a W220) C-Class.

[Benz_man600]

Did you read the irrational remarks made on that thread? Seems if Mercedes' arent any cheaper to maintain, Mercedes Benz owners are JUST A BIT more civilized...take a look!

[tkd_M119]

Benz_man600 - it was probably my remarks that you might have taken as "irrational" - I do admit to being a bit reactionary in my remarks and I apologize! I was reacting to blackmercedes comments. I was the one who started the thread in the Infiniti forum. I will make an effort to use more restraint in the future.

Let me state for the record that I own both a 92 400e (59K) and a 92 Q45 (102K). I've had the Q since 1995 and the W124 for almost a year.

Which one has been more trouble free?

My 400e has intermittent electrical problems (gauges, windows, ignition), blew a freeze plug at 59K as well as needs a new AC Evaporator. The evaporator is something I didn't expect to have to replace for a long time. When I spoke to the AC shop (went to a very reputable shop) they told me it was not uncommon for W124s to have evaporators go bad around 60 - 65K. I I wouldn't mind if it wasn't so much money to fix. I've also had to replace my belt tensioner, flex disc and a leaking power steering pump.

With my Q I've only had to replace 2 fuel injectors (at 97K) and timing chain guides (a weakness of earlier Qs, thus fixed in late 93 models onward). Other than that it's been trouble free. Qs are expensive to fix but I don't think it is any worse than MBZs.

My family owned both a 72 220D, 77 240D then a 82 BMW 528. All of those cars had lots of problems that we never suffered with Japanese makes. IE - AC evaporators going south before 70K on both MBZ, as well as fuel injectors and various other electrical problems. Most of these problems happened anywhere from 10K - 35K. The BMW had many electrical problems as well as interior parts that would break or wear rather quickly. I grew up in a neighborhood where many people drove BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and VW. Many of my parent’s friends complained of problems with their German cars, many of those being Mercedes. When Acura opened a local dealership the used car lot immediately filled up with mostly Mercedes. The dealership would line them up in adjacent of the showroom.

All the Japanese cars I and my family and friends have owned have been trouble free. We've either bought Honda or Toyota. Yes boring cars but trouble free. I'm sure you can find many on this forum who tell you of how problematic their Japanese car was/is and I'm sure in some cases it's true. But I think for most it is not.

Despite my family's history with German cars, I did decided to try out a W124 because of so many of the positive posts I read in this forum. MBZs interiors also seem to age better as well. I wanted a four door that was easy to park (I often have to park on the street and live in a densely populated part of Los Angeles), fun to drive, and had some personality. I also wanted something that was of quality that would last for years to come.

I do like my 400e. It's just that I worry less about my Q.

[blackmercedes]

There is a myth that the Lexus/Infiniti luxury models (LS/Q) are completely trouble free and cost much less than German cars to maintain as they age. Parts are expensive, dealer labour rates are high, labour allowances are high, and overall costs can be high.

Now, just as your Q has been trouble free, I am sure we can find some W124, W210, or W140 owners that wonder what all the fuss is about. I know more than one or two personally that have high-mileage cars that are virtually repair-free. And, you can find people ready to push their car off a cliff.

I read more than a few posts about 90-94 (there are no "pre-90" Q's) Q45 models that have poured enormous sums into their car. My post was NOT to beat up on Infiniti, it was to point out to my fellow MB enthusiasts that other makes are not the "trouble free, cheap to maintain" luxury cars some might think.

Here's a quote from the thread:

Thanks for putting things back into perspective! I sure needed it! Just hard to hear ignorant people "dissing" our cars!

Now we're ignorant people "dissing" your cars? Huh? The comments about resale value were spot on. Look through my original post and find where I am "dissing" your cars? I can find lots of "evidence" on your own forum of Q owners with high operating costs.

Does this mean the Q45 is a "bad" car? No. My now-sold 1987 911 Turbo was the most expensive car short of a Ferrari to maintain. My wife called it the "money-pit." She was right. However, it was brutally fast, looked terrific, and was challenging to drive. There were trade offs.

I try to warn prospective W140 owners about the costs associated with "flagship" driving. MB's top models are complex and keeping them in top shape can be expensive, regardless of your purchase price as 2nd, 3rd or 4th owner. That's just a fact. Don't have the stomach for it? Buy an E or C class. The Q45 falls into the same category as the S-Class. It is very complex, and can be expensive to own. This can come as a shock to the buyer that picks one up for $10K. It's easy to spend 1/3 of the purchase price each year just keeping it going. It's possible to spend more.

[jcyuhn]

Wow, a thoughtful, rational, clearly worded response. What a pleasant surprise. Being in the car market right now, I actually spent some time trolling around the Infiniti forum. It's a nice place - much like MBshop, not as much traffic though.

I think your remarks are spot on. Having been in the MB "club" for quite some time I personally don't believe MBs are tremendously reliable, but instead are very durable. For example, the accepted, normal transmission life of an Infiniti Q45 seems to be about 125K miles with good maintenance. There are one or two Q45 drivers with more than 200K miles on an engine, but nobody really expects to exceed that figure. In contrast, a Benz driver expects no fewer than 200K miles out of a transmission, and cars with 300K (or more) miles on the engine are common. And the Benz chassis, paint, and interior generally hold up well enough that a 300K mile car is worth repairing and keeping on the road. Which one is better - that's your decision to make, and it depends on your particular value system. If I've misrepresented anything, please feel free to jump in and correct me - it's only cars we're talking about here, not anything *really* important.

Here's one difference between the makes that I believe does add value to the MB brand. Parts availability. For example, the Q45 uses liquid filled bushings to mount the rear subframe to the chassis. Many of these are starting to need replacement. But Nissan doesn't sell the bushings, they come only as part of a complete new rear subframe assembly - a $700 part as I recall. You almost never see this type of problem with MB. Almost any part is individually available. For example, I recently needed a sunvisor clip for my 17 year old station wagon. I walked into the dealer, told the counter guy what I needed, and he went in the back and got it. Now, it was five bucks for a small plastic casting, but they had the right part, in the right color, in stock for a car built in the spring on 1987. I don't think you find that kind of support for any other brand, and it's a good part of the reason why I stick with MB even when they piss me off (as has been the case recently).

- Jim

[Holson Adi]

My dad just bought an Infiniti. I think it's the I30 or something. Well actually he bought the Nissan... not the Infiniti. The Nissan Cefiro. However it looks exactly like one of the Inifiniti's.

He really likes it except that he thinks the engine's not as good as the Lexus' ES300's V6 that he had before, and he thinks the headlights suck (wait til he tries some old DOT headlights...)

I can't say anything else until I drive it.

However, year per year I believe the Infiniti/Lexus are generally more trouble free than MB's. The one reason why I prefer MB's is that they seem to age more gracefully.

Besides I like the 80's MB's a lot more and I just like old cars in general and old Nissans and Toyotas don't really interest me.