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  #31  
Old 04-07-2003, 12:57 PM
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Kuan....

...your argument does not make sense. If Michelin can afford to hire Americans to make tires here, why wouldn't GoodYear do the same?

If it was that much cheaper for Michelin to make tires in Mexico, they'd have done so, instead of opening a factory here.

Think about it.
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  #32  
Old 04-07-2003, 01:31 PM
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Arrow Simple Economics . . .

If there are 10 tire companies making tires, and they each sell 10,000 tires a month, that mewans that the consumers are buying 100,000 tires a month.

If one of those companies is unable to sell their 10,000 tires a month due to product boycott, then the consumer boycotting that company must buy those tires from one of the other nine companies selling tires. Now, if the consumers equally purchased the 10,000 tires from the other nine companies, they may be able to handle the increase of business by not hiring additional workers, but if the consumers boycotting the one brand focused on a single replacement source, that company would have to hire additional personnel to handle the increase in sales.

Now, factoring in the idea that the one company not selling tires had to close a plant and lay off workers due to the downturn in business, and understanding the reality of the job market, which is that good help is hard to find, the workers from the plant that closed should be able to find gainful employment at one of their former employer's competitors, or possibly qualify for state-sponsored retraining to enter another industry, which would provide additional work for the government and private sector retraining personnel from that geographic area. Sounds like a winner to me.

As for France vs Germany, the problem is that the French make so few quality products, and the Germans make so many. We would have to virtually be at war with Germany before any of us would let go of our Mercedes vehicles, our Braun shavers, Krups kitchen appliances, or Wusthof cutlery. I took stock the other day, and discovered that I have lots of that stuff in my house . . .
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  #33  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:02 PM
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As to " As for France vs Germany"... I admit to feeling differently towards them because Germany WAS the problem in both World Wars... but Repented with effective teaching of history in its schools to try to stop the trend which it had participated in ...
But France was the victim TWICE, and needed our Help twice ... but has, starting immediately with DeGaulle been haughty ,aloof ,and antagonistic towards the US....
Such moves as not letting our planes fly over France when we went for Muamar Kadify ( haven't heard much from HIM since ! ) in 1981... etc.... finally give others that France is just out for itself... except when they need others help....
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  #34  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:14 PM
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Nobody is saying that it's not more expensive to produce tires in France, and it's possible that Goodyear would find a way to purchase a Michelin plant if it closes, but only if it's a good business decision. It's also very plausible that tire production will move somewhere where it's cheaper in either the long run or for the forseeable future. Either way, some kind of economic upheaval will occur and it's never pretty. Layoffs are never fun.

It's fine and dandy to say people should do this, or people should do that. But we don't live in an ideal world. Lots of people have a siginificant portion of their portfolios in the company match. Face it, we're not all smart enough to diversify despite all the ads we see on TV. Financial planning is a truly new concept and most old dogs who have been learned to be loyal to the company will be resistant to this new trick. Look around you and who do you see, then tell me what you think.

Anyway, chances that anything like that would happen are actually pretty slim. Word on the street is that this boycott isn't affecting sales by much so we won't have to worry too much about Michelin factories closing down. My point was that boycotts could hurt at home as well.
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  #35  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:21 PM
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allright, I'll chip in with my opinion. I know a few french and german people (one of my best friends is a German driving a Ford Focus), so anything I say here is something I would, and probably have, said to their face. Personally, I am very disappointed with France. They have been bashing Americans, american culture, and american products long before this Iraq thing (the 2003 part, not the 1991 part) even started. They call us ignorant, stupid, pompous, etc. Being the only american in my family (the rest are canadian, I was born in california), I already have a sense of patriotism, but I also have a perspective from my parents that is fairly unbiased. French people, wether in France or outside, have not been very helpful in any war, even if it ment saving their own skins. In world war II they did not give any resistance to the nazis because they didn't want them to ruin their precious city Paris. Even french-canadians didn't want to fight, they would run up into the hills and hide so they wouldn't be drafted. Even some of my french friends today bad mouth americans without any respect for what they have done for their country. I had french class first period in the morning on 9/11 and the teacher refused to put on the news because she thought we should not focus on bad things that are happening in the world, but focus on education. Although I respect her opinion, I think that something of such significant historical importance should take precidence over daily class and conjegation of verbs. It makes sense why France and Russia are against the war too, the russians were illegaly selling Iraq night vision technology and GPS jamming devices, and some US soldiers recently found a cache of french-made rifles in an Iraqi school (I heard all these on CNN). If the french people are being misrepresented, and it's only the french government, then why don't the french re-elect their representatives? I am particulary upset with canada too, because the prime minister is misrepresenting the people, but I think there are many problems with canada I'd be glad to discuss in another thread. Just my .02
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  #36  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:27 PM
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Assuming demand remains the same, a portion of laid off workers will find employment with the competitor. But layoffs are often due to decreased demand, but where are you going to get the money to purchase new tires if you've been laid off? Even if layoffs aren't due to decreased demand, increasing production doesn't always mean increasing labor. Companies are constantly looking for ways to increase efficiency. What's good enough for Michelin may not be good enough for Goodyear or vice versa. Companies vary greatly in structure. What may be a major expense for Goodyear may be tiny for Michelin, or once again, vice versa.

Here in Minnesota we're fighting tooth and nail to draw business into the depressed areas of the state. Trust me, many jobs are going to Mexico, Vietnam, Indonesia, and China, and guess where, across the state line to North and South Dakota. I see it at our local SBA monthly get togethers all the time. It's getting more and more difficult to keep our manufacturing industry instate. We're lucky to have a diverse economy, some states don't have that luxury.
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  #37  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:35 PM
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Question Hey Kuan . . .

How much do you think European boycotts of American goods are hurting American companies vs how much they hurt the local economy where they take place?

Vandalize a French McDonalds, and the French Insurance company has to pay damages after the French franchise owner pays his deductible and for his workers to clean up the damage. Boycott that French McDonalds, and the franchise owner has to close the location and pay penalties to the corporate office for failing to meet the terms of his franchise agreement. The French or Germans refuse to buy Coke, Budweiser, etc, and a local distributor has to face losses in what used to be a big seller for him. And the list goes on.

These are people trying to make money in smaller communities with less disposable income than we American "pig-dogs". It hurts their smaller local based ecomomies much more than it does ours. I would call it Van Gogh Syndrome. Let's cut off our ear because no one is listening, and then they will pay attention. They didn't, he died, end of story.

The reality is that most American people aren't going to change their foolish consumerism habits in this country, and those that do are simply making a symbolic gesture. I closed my account with Wank of The West. The bank officer asked me why. I told him that I resented France's position on the Iraq war, and did not wish to have the French banking institutions have access to my money any longer. He looked like I just took a dump on his desk. But I doubt that they will close my local branch because of a run on their bank . . .
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  #38  
Old 04-07-2003, 02:51 PM
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Re: Hey Kuan . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by longston
The French or Germans refuse to buy Coke, Budweiser
Budweiser is a great example of what America is all about. America is the only nation in the world which allows you to bottle water and call it beer

No, I don't think that this boycott of French products has hurt the big picture, but here's the problem. Just because our major economic indicators haven't been showing signs of decline doesn't mean that small American owned businesses aren't hurting. For example, the French restaurant business has seen a decline over the last two months. Some have even seen their business decline by half. For a business which stays afloat on 2-3% margins that's the kiss of death.

We've been so conditioned to take solace in the big economic picture that we can't see our trees withering around us.
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  #39  
Old 04-07-2003, 03:07 PM
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I don't think it's that abstract idea at all Tank. Most people get laid off because sales are slumping, companies want to increase efficiency, they're no longer needed because of mergers, or something else who knows what. A company which puchases its competitor may layoff 20% of their workforce because they're no longer needed. If I happen to be one of those laid off workers I don't think I'll be out looking for new tires, I'd be wondering how I could make my next house payment.

It's your personal decision to purchase whatever you want. Hell, I don't care if you call Budweiser beer! But sometimes it's not just the big picture which matters. These so called "boycotts" sometimes hit home real hard.

Edit: BTW, I'm doing my part by boycotting Renault and Citroen! It's been tough!
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  #40  
Old 04-07-2003, 03:31 PM
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Did nobody catch that front page article in Friday's WSJ about how the South Carolina house adopted a resolution to boycott French corporations? It was passed 90-10 only to be rejected by the Senate.
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  #41  
Old 04-07-2003, 03:47 PM
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Angry

Iíve been following this thread for some time, and at first I resolved not to join.
Not anymore.

You lot are one of the most sorry bunch of HYPOCRITS I have come across in a long time. What a lot of big words about the French for staying out of the Coalition, while -OH HOW CONVENIENTLY- ignoring the fact that Germany, YES, THE VERY CREATORS OF YOUR PRECIOUS VEHICLES- has done the very same thingÖ. Hardly a word about this painful, worrying fact.
Its very easy to express strong opinions in your armchairs behind your PCs in your nice and comfortable homes, lovely wives, nice kids. Boycotting french wine, cheese, etc. Thatís safe, no risk, dinner at eight. Some statement...

But what about showing some genuine commitment, he???
Why donít you act instead of typing words, and demonstrate real sacrifice like your brave, awesome fellow-countrymen are doing in Iraq right now? Put your money where your big mouths are if your convictions are as honest as you claim:

BURN YOUR BENZ, THE SYMBOL OF OLD EUROPE, TO SHOW HOW MUCH YOU DISLIKE THE COWARDS!!!

But of course, oh no, that would be too much, unthinkable. Giving up the very symbol of you social status, is simply out of the question. No, lets stick to just typing words and pretend how patriotic, committed, and politically correct you all are.

Buying Goodyear tires instead of Michelin as your main contribution: give me a break
You bunch make me sick
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2003, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vronsky
Iíve been following this thread for some time, and at first I resolved not to join.
Not anymore.

You lot are one of the most sorry bunch of HYPOCRITS I have come across in a long time. What a lot of big words about the French for staying out of the Coalition, while -OH HOW CONVENIENTLY- ignoring the fact that Germany, YES, THE VERY CREATORS OF YOUR PRECIOUS VEHICLES- has done the very same thingÖ. Hardly a word about this painful, worrying fact.
Its very easy to express strong opinions in your armchairs behind your PCs in your nice and comfortable homes, lovely wives, nice kids. Boycotting french wine, cheese, etc. Thatís safe, no risk, dinner at eight. Some statement...

But what about showing some genuine commitment, he???
Why donít you act instead of typing words, and demonstrate real sacrifice like your brave, awesome fellow-countrymen are doing in Iraq right now? Put your money where your big mouths are if your convictions are as honest as you claim:

BURN YOUR BENZ, THE SYMBOL OF OLD EUROPE, TO SHOW HOW MUCH YOU DISLIKE THE COWARDS!!!

But of course, oh no, that would be too much, unthinkable. Giving up the very symbol of you social status, is simply out of the question. No, lets stick to just typing words and pretend how patriotic, committed, and politically correct you all are.

Buying Goodyear tires instead of Michelin as your main contribution: give me a break
You bunch make me sick
I don't know how you can say all this... there are plenty of people on this board who fought for our country, just check out the thread about military service. Someone already said something about german cars... go back and read the thread again, then kindly remove your foot from your mouth.
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2003, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vronsky
You bunch make me sick
Pass him the Alka-Seltzer


I'd like to help you out.
Which way did you come in?:p
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  #44  
Old 04-07-2003, 05:01 PM
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Holy ***** the French are good at whining! Germany hasn't exactly been a great ally to the US lately, but they have not actively coordinated outright resistance to our policies as have the French.

The French also happen to be one of Iraq's largest trading partners and need to examine the hypocrite label for themselves. Germany also hasn't been involved in their own colonial-type adventures as the french have been lately. Did the French obtain UN approval for their recent actions in the Ivory Coast? I didn't think so.
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  #45  
Old 04-07-2003, 05:34 PM
MedMech
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Is the al-sahaf Vronsky speaking?
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