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  #16  
Old 04-13-2003, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by w126
Summer is coming up, so there will be even less action. Supposed to be low 70's in a few days! Get outside!!
hopped in the pool today, a warm 86 degrees (solar heating only). I understand that most of these guys won't try this stuff face-to-face, but it's really childish, and a big waste of time. I used to enjoy the productive discussions, but recently, nobody listens to anything said, and all they want to do is bicker. I have better ways of spending my time than arguing over the internet.

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  #17  
Old 04-13-2003, 01:38 PM
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Re: Cap'n Couragous post

Quote:
Originally posted by Frank X. Morris
Howdy Paul,
What forum did he post in?
The SL Forum:

Any owners of 90 or 91 SLs out there?
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2003, 08:19 PM
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Lightbulb Here's Some Tips . . .

This forum was created to take the chit chat out of the technical forums so the techs and knowledgeable members there could concentrate on helping people with actual problems instead of having to wade through a lot of opinionated postings and general B.S., some of it good natured, some not.

I have seen a lot of good members with valid contributions leave these forums because of some immature new people who came here and decided to be argumenative and opinionated. There were a lot of well educated mature members who had the precious gift of life experience to share with us. They got tired of having to shout over the static. As the old saying goes, you don't learn from being right, and you never learn with your mouth open.

There is a clear division between people here who come to learn and share knowledge, and those who believe that they already know everything they need to learn except where to get stereo mods and kits to turn their Mercedes-Benz into a Honda ricemobile. If it has to do with colored lights, gold plating, lowering, exhaust mods, louder stereo equipment, or any number of garish abominations, they're eager to learn all about it. But if an opinion is offered that disagrees with their mindset, or has anything to do with making an informed decision, finding facts, improving their knowledge base, offering a rational debate, making them actually think, and/or seeing another viewpoint, they can't deal with it.

I've seen senior members with years of experience as Mercedes owners get flamed because they offered their advice on a brand or type of motor oil that they had good results from. I have personally invested a great deal of time in doing factual research on various topics to find my own answers. And when I have shared what I discovered on these forums, I have sometimes had people argue with me and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about because their neighbor, uncle, friend's dad, or someone else who had done no research on that topic had told them differently. That's fine if you can show factual details to back it up, but to argue on the side of rumor without checking your facts is stupid.

There are a lot of MIA's I do not miss, and would never want to see here again. The people I refer to were irrational, argumenative, outright combative, rude, and were unwilling to resolve their differences with people off of the forum via email. I myself, left these forums as an active member because of the lack of active self-moderation, the disintegration of any form of civility, and the preponderance of smart ass know it all punks who had decided that this was a fun place to vent their neurotic issues, and be disrespectful to people that they seemed to have nothing in common with aside from the brand name of automobile they drive.

Why did I come back? I kept getting emails and phone calls from decent people who I had made friends with on this forum, or who at least missed my viewpoint and ability to express it. I was encouraged by the amount of idiots who had decided to leave the forum to stir up trouble elsewhere. And I was in contact with people here who were aware that things had become so bad that the administration was about to shut down Open Discussion because of all of the open fighting and flames these people were causing. I didn't want to see that happen.

So here's my advice to anyone who wants to leave these forums.

1. Are you the problem? Think carefully about this. What substance do you really contribute to discussions here? Or are your postings all just empty one-line comments. Are you always reacting to what you see as an attack on you instead of trying to resolve what might be a simple misunderstanding? Or do you often get a lot of positive responses to what you have to say?

2. When you post something, did you think about what response it might get? Do You care? Posting here to just get a negative response is inappropriate and contrary to the intent of this forum. Aside from that, not every post is going to be a winner. We all have differing opinions and tastes. If the subject matter isn't your style or interest, then just move on. If what you posted got no response, think about why it was a dud, and don't beat a dead horse.

3. Do you have any respect for seniority? Whether that means that someone has been a member here longer, or is older and/or more experienced than you, try to respect their seniority. This forum isn't like some others where new members are automatically thrown to the wolves and treated like crap. People here usually will give you the same kind of respect you give them. Look to see how long they've been a member, and get to know them better before you give a knee-jerk reaction to something they post. Remember that respect and courtesy is an intersection of two-way streets.

4. Do you use the archives to check on something before you post a question or concern? There are plenty of oil, additive, AC mod, antifreeze/coolant, and filter threads you could read before you start another thread that we've seen over and over and over again. And don't be offended if we tell you so. Also, don't assume just because someone is not specifically listed as a tech that they don't know anything about how to solve your problem. We're all here to exchange knowledge and information.

5. Did you do any research on the issue before asking for help and/or opinions? There are too many times when someone wants to know something about a part, material, substance, publication, method, and/or procedure when they have done no preliminary research on that subject. I would rather see a posting from someone saying "I have been looking at various... , and while... is... , it seems to me that..." rather than see someone ask for information about something they have made no effort to find out anything about beforehand. This is not the Mercedes-Benz version of Google. Do some homework first.

6. Did you understand what the person you are about to flame actually was saying, and are you sure it was directed at you specifically? People have different ways of expressing their individual sense of humor. Sometimes mine can be kind of a combination of Buddy Hackett, Don Rickles, Louis Black, and Triumph the Insult Comedy Dog as interpreted by Howard Stern. I can be very sarcastic, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to insult you. The point is, until we know someone's online "personality", we shouldn't be on the defensive always looking for implied insults. Writing on the internet can be difficult to "read" accurately. That's why the emoticons, or smilies were invented so we could show a form of punctuation that normal periods, question marks, and commas don't convey. If you think someone just insulted you, and you are angry, then . . .

7. Take it offline. Be courteous, and give the other guy the benefit of the doubt. Ask them in a PM or email if what you thought they said is what they meant. I have only had one person that I couldn't resolve a conflict with via email. Once you make the gesture to try to straighten out a conflict, you may be amazed how far off your impression was of what they were actually saying. Or they may have reacted to something you posted before them that they thought was just you being an ass. Give it a try before subjecting the whole membership to your personal problem.

8. Leave if you don't agree with being a valid contributor to a community of people who are here to learn, teach, share, and find out what we all have in common as people who own, maintain, restore, and pamper our Mercedes-Benz Vehicles. Just because you own a MB doesn't mean you are an enthusiast. It also doesn't mean you are rich, handsome, immortal, bulletproof, or better than anyone else. It just means you own a MB. Unless you also have the desire to really use this opportunity to increase your knowledge, improve yourself, and experience what being a member of the "community" of MercedesShop should really be all about.
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Last edited by longston; 04-13-2003 at 09:29 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2003, 08:43 PM
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As always - good write up Scott. My most precious commodity, as I'm sure yours too, is time and I have about gotton to the point that I just go through and quickly glance at topics I may have an interest in or can contribute to.
I wondered why you came back and am glad you did.
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  #20  
Old 04-14-2003, 01:36 AM
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KUBANG! Scott is right, as usual.

I have been "on-board" since the Open Discussion Forum was created. Here are my observations:

Originally, when the group was small, we "agreed to disagree." People had different viewpoints, but were able to express them and "listen" with an open mind. This has changed...

Look at the topic of the War in Iraq. There are still a great number of members that simply use inflamatory remarks without thinking about the fact that each person has thier own opinion, and reasons behind them. For those of us that were sitting on the fence prior to the war, we were all branded "peaceniks" and basically labelled as idiots. Trying to find a real discussion on the merits of each position was pretty much impossible. I gave up using this forum as a source of information to expand my understanding. Of course, it works the other way too. Some simply expressed their "anti-war" opinion by calling all those supporting action "war-mongers."

To the subject of automotive knowledge as a part of the Open Discussion Forum, it pretty much faded away. The topics involving the more esoteric areas of MB ownership dried up, and when initiated, greeted with fire. I've had some great MB adventures over the last year, but don't feel like sharing after getting hate-mail repeatedly filling my in-box. While I have a thick skin, even I get worn down.

The thing that worries me personally is that the open Discussion Forum will cause MB-Shop to implode, and we'll lose the best part: Steve, Donnie, Gilly, and the other numerous techs that provide their time and knowledge free of charge. Why would they bother to spin wrenches all day and then come home to posts complaining about the speed of tech response on the site?

Hopefully Scott's excellent post will be logging as many views as the Pretty Girls thread, and we'll keep things civilized...
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  #21  
Old 04-14-2003, 05:15 AM
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Re: Here's Some Tips . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by longston
3. Do you have any respect for seniority? Whether that means that someone has been a member here longer, or is older and/or more experienced than you, try to respect their seniority. This forum isn't like some others where new members are automatically thrown to the wolves and treated like crap. People here usually will give you the same kind of respect you give them. Look to see how long they've been a member, and get to know them better before you give a knee-jerk reaction to something they post. Remember that respect and courtesy is an intersection of two-way streets.
As a matter of fact, I do not care how old anyone is, and I do not think it is relevant at all. Recently, Tobasco started going off on me calling me an ill-informed yuppie for liking BMW's. In reality, he is old enough to be my dad, but he acted like a 5th grader in the way he attacked me (just ask RickG or Spock). Just because somebody is older than me does not mean they are more intelligent, more logical, smarter or that their opinion should be given more consideration than any other person's.
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2003, 10:01 AM
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Re: Re: Here's Some Tips . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by 4NDELIT
Just because somebody is older than me does not mean they are more intelligent, more logical, smarter or that their opinion should be given more consideration than any other person's.
I agree and disagree. This is where giving someone the initial benefit of the doubt comes in. Then, once their wisdom, or lack of, is proven, then you take it from there.

In society we once respected people's experience. Age meant experience, just in living life. I still extend this courtesy, and then make judgements from there. I have met some pretty childish senior citizens, but at least I gave them some courtesy prior to them exposing themselves. What have you got to lose? It's not a game with a scoreboard.
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2003, 02:25 PM
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Great discussion! I had no idea this would go where it has.
on the age issue, I always give a person, old, young or otherwise the benifit of the doubt. Young people can be a bit more outspoken (as I was) on issues they think they know about, but still have a lot to learn. Older people can be outspoken because they think know alot on a subject because of their age (but may not). My dad and I used to go around and around on some issues. (everybody raise your hand. You know you did it too )
I guess my point is, give some leeway. Allow our younger members to learn. They don't need put downs everytime they speak up. I'm not saying to just humor them, but be a bit kinder in correcting them, IF it's really needed. (often it's not). I enjoy hearing from these guys. They bring a perspective that I've myself had, and forgotten. They're not always wrong, but just need the perspective that is gained only thru the years of experience. An example is the discussion we had with Kyle on communism in another thread. It wasn't so much whether he was right or wrong. We had a good exchange of ideas on the issue, with a minimal amount of critisism towards each other. I still don't think his viewpoint is right on the subject, but so what. I know him better now, and do appreciate a young person having as much insight in a political issue as he has. In time he'll have experiences that will help him to either gain more or less conviction towards the opinions he has now. If I still held to alot of what I thought 20 years ago, well......
So....I hope those of us here will stick around. Even with the problems, we're a far sight better than several months ago.
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2003, 08:30 PM
KylePavao
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WOOO

I was complimented by RickG!
*scratches an "I" into the chalkboard*
I do think it holds true for the most part that older people have more insight than I do. They've been around longer. But many times they contradict themselves (in the case of my father saying all the Iraqi refugees come here to suck off the system, when in fact my grandmother and grandfather were naturalized citizens who left the US when WWII broke out, had my father and my uncles in aunts in the Azores Islands, and came back when the war ended) which seemed to be a MASSIVE case of sucking of the hospitality of the US.
Anyhow. I think young and old are able to talk to one another intelligently, just that us "yungins" are a bit more vocal and exuberant about the way we say things, which many times comes off as snobby or arrogant.
Most of the times we are wrong.
Most of the times I disagree with my father just for the sake of taking the other side, and defending a point.
A think a lot of young people argue for the sake of arguing: I do that alot.
Just have fun..and keep it clean.
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  #25  
Old 04-14-2003, 10:24 PM
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Arrow Take It To Email . . .

BTW, this is an excellent example of what and when to take something to email. If Spock has issues with me personally, why make everyone else have to deal with it too? It detracts from the point, and has no relevance to the topic at large. But, screw it, here we go . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by SP0CK
I have also gotten the impression that you think you are always right. Newsflash - You are NOT always right. You can write as articulately as you want, have plenty of facts and still have a debatable premise.
My dear Spock, what you are saying is quite illogical.

First, you have stated that you have the impression that I think I am always right. An impression is defined as a feeling, sense, or vague notion. So, by definition, if anyone has an impression then, it is theirs alone, because they created it within themselves. For another party to be responsible for that impression, it would have to be a willful act on their part to validate said impression. And, as you are unable to truly ascertain what I think, then you have made an assumption or a supposition that is neither based upon fact nor logic.

I freely admit that I try very hard to post factual and accurate information on this forum. And by that admission, it could be said that I am making an effort to always be right when doing so. But I am more than willing and able to admit when I am wrong, and have done so on more than one occasion. Any impressions that you, or anyone else may have to the contrary are inaccurate.

How can one be articulate, have plenty of facts and still have a debatable premise unless someone else is equally capable and willing to debate it? They would need to come to that debate also armed with their own facts to back up their argument. This is mirrored by our judicial system where attorneys are paid huge sums of money to find any possible way to provide a counter argument. I simply debate and argue from a quite comfortable position of logic and rational thought that is based upon my own acquired knowledge and life experience backed up by actual research.

Quote:
Originally posted by SP0CK
Another thing I have learned, but still don't always adequately realize, is that not everyone ENJOYS my sense of humor. In fact, they might find it irritating. If I am aware of this, I will respectfully STOP irritating them. You may need to consider this as well.
Well stated. But as the bard once wrote, "To thine own self be true...". My mention of that one single aspect of my own sense of humor was meant to serve as a metaphor of a worst case senario. My point was that someone may just be making a humorous comment, not going out of their way to intentionally insult someone else. For instance, sometimes we set ourselves up to be made fun of or be ridiculed in a good natured way. We probably deserve it, and it should be accepted in the spirit it was given, not instantly defended as an attack on our character or values.

Quote:
Originally posted by SP0CK
Also, what did you mean by "I myself, left these forums as an active member because of the lack of active self-moderation." Meaning you did not do a good job of moderating yourself??

Last of all, you are being redundant using "I and myself" in that sentence. Try grammar check!
:p (ps notice the cons)
Here's another example of how experience and maturity plays into this issue. I could get defensive and tell you what an "inexperienced moron" you are, but instead, I will now punish you by explaining it all in gross detail. :p

In this case, the use of "I" and "myself" together stresses my previous inclusion with the other MIA's that were the original subject of this thread. The use of variations of this are very common. For example, they themselves, he himself, she herself, and we ourselves. Used alone, they read in the Tarzan, Tonto, & Frankenstein style, but when used in a sentence, they are generally meant to convey inclusion to a group. To simply say "I left these forums..." does not convey the strength of that inclusion. In another acceptable style, I could have written "I left these forums myself..." but what followed would have changed the intended meaning of the term "active member". I chose the structure I used because I thought it was the best way to show inclusion with the subject group by use of the term "I myself", and to qualify the term "active member".

As for my use of the term, "self-moderation", it's clearly linked to the subject of THE forum membership being self-moderating, not to me. For it to have the meaning you imply, I would have to have said, "MY lack of self-moderation". (Although some people might argue that both cases were true. ) The point was that we should, and can, moderate ourselves both as individuals and as a group, without having to constantly call on the official moderators to intercede.

So, if your questions were valid, hopefully you have learned something. If they were meant to be your way of expressing your own sense of humor, then this was mine.
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  #26  
Old 04-15-2003, 12:39 AM
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Re: WOOO

Quote:
Originally posted by KylePavao
A think a lot of young people argue for the sake of arguing: I do that alot.
Just remember, if you do, you're on your own, and I take back all the nice things I said about you
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'67 230
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Current rides:
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2003, 03:35 AM
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Longston, try shortening your responces. You're quite redundant in your diction, and it is just taking up space.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2003, 01:55 PM
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Re: Re: Here's Some Tips . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by 4NDELIT
As a matter of fact, I do not care how old anyone is, and I do not think it is relevant at all. Recently, Tobasco started going off on me calling me an ill-informed yuppie for liking BMW's. In reality, he is old enough to be my dad, but he acted like a 5th grader in the way he attacked me (just ask RickG or Spock). Just because somebody is older than me does not mean they are more intelligent, more logical, smarter or that their opinion should be given more consideration than any other person's.
Here is an example of the uncanny ability of someone to simultaneously miss and prove a point at the same time . . .

Was that short and succinct enough for you, Rooberto?
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Last edited by longston; 04-15-2003 at 02:02 PM.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2003, 05:49 PM
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I understood the whole issue, but wanted to only comment on one aspect of it. I understand that seniority can deal with a person's age or how long they were on the board, but I wanted to adress the age issue because I have a problem with it. I don't think I missed the point.

PS: Thanks for your brevity Scotty.
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  #30  
Old 04-18-2003, 01:14 AM
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well, if a lot of people are like me, they did what oh, 90% of people in the USA did- stared at the TV until their eyeballs popped out and have blisters on their thumbs from clicking (CNN, CNN Headline News, FoxNews, CNN fn, MSNBC, CNBC, CSPAN, and now backwards with a World Rally Championship thrown in today). I'm writing it at midnight, and I have to get up in 4 hrs...

oh, well...

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