Real World 101 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mikemover · #1 09-03-2003, 10:49 PM

An interesting look at time spent in an "academic" environment -vs.- time spent in a "real world" environment, and how it relates and/or translates to political leanings, tolerance, etc.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/082903A.html

Mike

kerry · #2 09-03-2003, 10:59 PM

Get over the foolish distinction between the 'academic' world and the 'real' world. It's in the academic world that people get to read your heroes Locke, and Hospers and Nozick. Don't forget that it is the Chicago "School" that advocates your brand of economics. Or did you have in mind the great contributions of Karl Marx who was never corrupted by life in an academic world?

mikemover · #3 09-03-2003, 11:06 PM

Did you even read the article? Anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand can see the EXTREME liberal bias in most public universities and schools. College professors who have had little or no professional life/career experience OUTSIDE of academia are OVERWHELMINGLY politically liberal. People who work jobs that DON'T offer TENURE tend to be more conservative. You could plot the curve on a graph! The more time one spends AWAY from an isolated academic environment, the more conservative traits they tend to exhibit...The trend is too obvious and consistent to casually dismiss.

Mike

kerry · #4 09-03-2003, 11:22 PM

I didn't read the article because the link would not open. But I was not disputing the data. It is obvious that political beliefs can be correlated with social classes. So what?
My point was your statement that one world was 'real' as opposed to another is just propaganda and a way to avoid serious thought. As I pointed out, there are conservatives who have had long tenured careers in academia and radicals who have never held an academic job.
The intellectual work that goes on in academia is no less 'real' than the ditch that is dug by a laborer.
It's a cheap shot to say that the social class you dislike lives in an 'unreal' world. Education is fundamental to the human species and the institutions in which education occurs are as 'real' as any other part of human life.

I'll take a cheap shot of my own: The only world libertarians think is real is the world of 'real property' which can be owned. Since the focus of education is a 'mind' which cannot be owned, education must deal with 'unreal property'.

mikemover · #5 09-03-2003, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
I didn't read the article because the link would not open.

Works fine for me...but here it is again.

Real World 101

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
But I was not disputing the data. It is obvious that political beliefs can be correlated with social classes. So what?

I said NOTHING about classes...I'm talking about so-called "academics" as opposed to "everyone else". This is not a "class warfare" issue AT ALL. It is THEM who isolate themselves, and it is YOU who are avoiding and denying the issue.

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
The intellectual work that goes on in academia is no less 'real' than the ditch that is dug by a laborer...
Education is fundamental to the human species and the institutions in which education occurs are as 'real' as any other part of human life.

I'm not saying that it's not "real work". Nor am I IN ANY WAY saying that higher education is a bad thing. On the contrary. I'm saying that they are in a very isolated environment, and that's partially a good thing, because there's less distractions for students and professors alike. But it's also a bad thing, because those same students and professors are also often isolated from MANY of the world's situations and realities that WILL affect them once they are no longer in school, and are "out here with the rest of us". Unless of course they decide to be teachers, in which case they can possibly NEVER have to deal with such "inconveniences" as having to worry about a job without tenure!

It's VERY difficult to get fired once you have tenure, and everyone knows it! It's also hard to speak out against politicians advocating higher taxes when it's those higher taxes that are paying your salary!

I went to a public university. I was a music major at University of Kentucky, and experienced this phenomenon myself. I'm not just blindly quoting some "propaganda" that I read somewhere... I LIVED IT.

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
I'll take a cheap shot of my own: The only world libertarians think is real is the world of 'real property' which can be owned. Since the focus of education is a 'mind' which cannot be owned, education must deal with 'unreal property'.

Now, now, Kerry...how can you possibly say that after all the debate we've had here about INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY?! I have LOTS of "unreal property" that I have GREAT interest in protecting!

None of this changes the facts...Political bias--LIBERAL bias, specifically--is rampant in our public schools and universities, due at least in part to the self-imposed "isolation" of professors on campus.

Mike

kerry · #6 09-04-2003, 12:13 AM

If you're not speaking of educators as a 'social class', then what are they?

What are the 'isolated' from? Life as a business person lives it? Yes, but the business person is just as isolated from life as educators live it. Teachers are not business people (usually) and business people are not teachers(usually). Neither is isolated from reality in any way. They both live and work in different parts of society. Both are equally important.
Your whining about academics being liberal makes as much sense as whining about the fact that business people are 'conservative'! Most people's political agendas align with their class interests. It is no surprise that a capitalist corporation hires Rush Limbaugh as a talk show host just as it is no surprise that people who work at public goods like education are going to speak out in favor of such public goods.

mikemover · #7 09-04-2003, 12:23 AM

Again, you miss the point entirely. I figured as much.

These professors TEACH, and they teach from a very biased point of view in many, many cases. The "other side of the coin" is often not presented to students, and in fact is often VERY frowned upon. If you are that oblivious to this, then the biased nature of the education YOU received proves my point! It worked...they got you.

I was there, I experienced it, and I kept my eyes and ears open. And it's FAR worse and more obvious today than it was back then.

Mike

kerry · #8 09-04-2003, 12:25 AM

The 'real world' that Mr. King wants people to have experience in, is the real world of corporate management.
The irony is that if an academic were to spend more time in the world of the hourly worker in a factory or at McDonalds, they'd be more to the left than they already are!! This is why the 'right' was outraged by the choice of Barbara Ehrenreich's book 'Nickel and Dimed' as the summer reading choice for college bound students at ????(a university in the Southeast). It's the point of view of the corporate manager that counts and not the viewpoint of the worker.

kerry · #9 09-04-2003, 12:33 AM

Your comment that teachers teach from a 'biased' point of view presumes that there is some kind of 'non-biased' point for view from which to teach.
That's fiction. There are no non-biased points of view. There are just points of view.
If conservatives don't like the point of view of college teachers, they should go to college and teach with their point of view instead of whining about it.
So far, they haven't done it . They haven't because they're more interested in making money than in living on an educators salary.

mikemover · #10 09-04-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
Your comment that teachers teach from a 'biased' point of view presumes that there is some kind of 'non-biased' point for view from which to teach.
That's fiction. There are no non-biased points of view. There are just points of view.

Like I said...they got you.

There can at least be an EFFORT to be as "neutral" as possible. There is no such effort being made much of the time.

You are focusing on minutae and ignoring the point.

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
If conservatives don't like the point of view of college teachers, they should go to college and teach with their point of view instead of whining about it.
So far, they haven't done it . They haven't because they're more interested in making money than in living on an educators salary.

This you are correct about. Teachers are underpaid--and no, I won't go into the many issues associated with that situation--which prevents most people who want to be financially successful and self-reliant from going into teaching.

blackmercedes · #11 09-04-2003, 12:54 AM

First, academics so not "teach." This term is wrong. They are intructors, and most have little or no expertise in actual teaching, which is a skill unto itself.

Next, the values, experience and work of the instructor is very important in that it presents an opinion and position to the students. All university students are adults, and bring with them their own set of ideals. They are there to be exposed to information and hone their ability to evaluate it and form their own opinion through research. They are not drones that absorb what is presented and then regurgitate it.

I expect students to question EVERYTHING that is said, presented, or on the reading list. If not, you flunk. They are to form their own ideas. This isn't kindergarten. You should know how to tie your shoes.

Assuming that academia is corrupting our youth is not giving our young people the credit they strongly deserve. Typical right-wing drivel looking to increase it's power base and "reform" something. There are certainly area of schools with lots of right-wing clusters, and they tend to lean towards the "this is the right way" type of information presentation. Academia, I suspect, would be completely co-opted in this manner were the right-wing able to wrestle complete control away.

And I agree with Kerry: I protest that all CEO's are right-wing physcopaths. More left wingers should be immediately hired into the executive suites of the corporate world.

Kuan · #12 09-04-2003, 08:50 AM

Anyone who has ever sat in a functional group meeting consisting of MBA's and engineers will see that real world MBA experience has nothing to do with producing good products.

Academia is responsible for the computer you use, the drones in the natural pipelines which run on natural gas, the safety of your food supply, the highways you drive on... and yes, the tiles on the space shuttle.

I'm drawing a blank trying to come up with one liberal thesis or dissertation during my time in school. Hrm, let's see. How could one put a liberal spin on quarks and muons. A half-liberal spin maybe?

Robert Davis · #13 09-04-2003, 09:37 AM

Interesting discussion ! I am a school teacher by day and run a martial art school at night. It is true - do not be a teacher if you want financial success. I plan on leaving teaching as soon as my martial arts school is up and running strong.
One could write a book on the perils of public school. Student behavior is the main problem. As for college, I am sure I will get slammed for writing this - but here goes......
First let me say I am a conservative. The problem in colleges and universities is the domination by the tenured radicals of the 60's. In the name of multiculturalism, the classics of Western Civilization are slowly being removed. The best of what has been thought and written is dying. Kids have no idea of Homer, Aristotle, Plato, Chaucer, Dante, etc. These essential writings have contributed to the success of America. Historical revisionists rewrite history to please minorities. Minorities have contributed much to this great country. They do not need rewritten history to prove it. We must look at greatness for what it is - simply greatness. Multiculturalists look at greatness as "dead white males", and unnecessary to education.
Other cultures have much to offer all. I am a student of other cultures and believe they should be studied. Look at the marvelous civilization of the ancient Egyptians, or the great heritage of Asia. Much to study - much to learn. BUT....not at the expense of our own Western Heritage.

Robert Davis

mikemover · #14 09-04-2003, 09:50 AM

Thanks Robert! At least SOMEBODY gets it!

That kind of thing is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Mike

kerry · #15 09-04-2003, 10:05 AM

There may be a philosophy department somewhere in which Plato or Aristotle are not taught but I have never seen it. Nobody can get through an Intro to Philosophy course at our school without knowing the ideas of Plato and Aristotle. Even the most 'radical' of professors include them.
The students will also learn about the Buddha, or Confucius, or Marx and De Beauvoir, but to characterize multiculturalism as excluding the classics of western thought is just not true in the philosophy departments that I know.

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