Matrix Reloaded explanation - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

sixto · #1 10-11-2003, 10:23 PM

What the heck did the guy at the core of the Matrix say to Neo. I was watching with subtitles but it seemed like the words were from Immanuel Kant at his Kantiest. Can someone rephrase the explanation in third grade terms?

Sixto
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Botnst · #2 10-13-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
What the heck did the guy at the core of the Matrix say to Neo.

The guy said he was trying to establish a world that was both complete and consistent (which is extremely cool and violating a math theorem (Cantor?) that indicates that impossibility). Anyway, he indicates that he has been refining the matrix through an iterative series of approximations, each more stable than the previous. He then pulls a switch from math to Hinduism by telling Neo that he (Neo) is just the latest Neo (the blue boy god, Shiva? Krisna? somebody help me)--there have been many before and that Neo is getting more predictable. Finally, he offers Neo a logical choice--save humanity and lose Trinity or lose Trinity and save humanity. With Star Trek logic, saving the many is better than the saving the one--which Neo violates by choosing the irrational--proving that the Core could still not predict Neo; that the Core had not yet produced a complete and consistent matrix, that Neo's free-will choice could still defeat the machine logic.

Phew!

The coolest hint at who Neo is, came in the last scene: remember it?

Botnst

kerry · #3 10-13-2003, 11:36 PM

Goedel

Botnst · #4 10-13-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kerry edwards
Goedel

Right, I'd forgotten. It makes my head hurt to remember. That's consistent.

Kantor was the infinity guy, right? He makes my head hurt, too.

I get bad juju from mathematics at that level.

Botnst

anthonyb · #5 10-14-2003, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Botnst
The guy said he was trying to establish a world that was both complete and consistent (which is extremely cool and violating a math theorem (Cantor?) that indicates that impossibility). Anyway, he indicates that he has been refining the matrix through an iterative series of approximations, each more stable than the previous.

I'm not sure if this is different from what you're saying or not (not sure what you mean by "iterative series of approximations"), but I thought the conversation indicated that there were five or six previous versions of the Matrix, each with its own Neo/Zion, and each time, the information gleaned from that Neo's experience was used to further refine the next version of the Matrix. Also, that Zion + the "Prophecy" provided a predetermined escape program for those individuals that rejected the confines of the Matrix.

Quote:

With Star Trek logic, saving the many is better than the saving the one--which Neo violates by choosing the irrational--proving that the Core could still not predict Neo; that the Core had not yet produced a complete and consistent matrix, that Neo's free-will choice could still defeat the machine logic.

I think in this case, the Architect had already predicted that Neo would choose Trinity over Zion - hence the statement "But we already know what you are going to do. Already I can see the chemical precursors..." In this case, they would now be able to destroy Zion for once and all, but I'm not sure what it would get them because it seemed like a pretty good system to me.

Quote:

The coolest hint at who Neo is, came in the last scene: remember it?

You think he's Smith?

Botnst · #6 10-14-2003, 09:20 AM

"You think he's Smith?"

Recall that he zapped the octo-thingies with a wave of his hands. Kung-fu'd them with a self-generated EMP. How'd he do that outside of the Matrix?

I think he is a transcendent personality. And/Or Reality is just another form of the Matrix-- like in the "Thirteenth Floor".

Botnst

blackmercedes · #7 10-14-2003, 09:41 AM

It could be that they are not outside the Matrix at all, and the Zion program was created to enable humans to struggle and attain some sort of freedom. As time passed the Matrix learned that leadership and revolution are genetic encoded behaviours that should be harnessed instead of repressed. The Neo scenario was created just for this purpose.

However, what if that is the truth and they learn it? Also, why then would Neo's "power" work outside the Matrix? Wouldn't that be a potential giveaway to the humans that would spoil the program?

November is coming quickly...

Botnst · #8 10-14-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
November is coming quickly...

Ain't it the truth?

I'm looking forward to three media events: "24"; "Matrix" and "Rings".

I'm buying Matrix & Rings. Both are really well done and fun to watch several times.

Botnst

yal · #9 10-14-2003, 10:43 AM

This guy wrote and essay on it. After I read it the movie made perfect sense. Or at least it helped me draw my own conclusions.

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html

Botnst · #10 10-14-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yal

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html

Wow, YAL, that's a heck of a site. Thanks.

Botnst

dmorrison · #11 10-14-2003, 12:12 PM

Neo is shown that he is not a Human fighting the programs in the matrix, but that he is a program. As always, it is done without all the info and your not sure "what is real" .

He's "The Matrix" progam update number 2 ( sort of like IE version 6.0 trying to fix all the problems of IE 5.0). A program to try to fix the main program. All levels of the matrix are just programs to make the main program work correctly.

Are there really any humans alive at all?

This concept was shown years ago. Remember in "Animal House". Smoking a joint in the bath tub and Pinto is shown that our "solar system" is a atom on the finger of larger being!!! Your reality may not be a true reality.

It makes you wonder, what drugs were the writers using.

Great movies!!!

Dave

G-Benz · #12 10-14-2003, 12:37 PM

Yeah, what a thoughtful insight. Now I can explain this movie to my 9-year old daughter...

...not sure she has the cognitive abilities to understand. Oh well, lots of special effects to keep her riveted to the screen!

Getting the DVD today!

rickg · #13 10-14-2003, 12:41 PM

Man. You guys are scaring me

Not sure I want to even see the movie now. I'm not quite that "deep" in philosophy-type stuff

I'm more like G-'s 9 year old daughter....just entertain me, please

ericnguyen · #14 10-14-2003, 07:44 PM

Dear Mr. Botnst:

- Georg Cantor - Father of the SET THEORY

- Kurt Gödel - Master of Logic. He discovered the following 2 incredibly abstract theorems.

1) Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem: Any adequate axiomatizable theory is incomplete. In particular the sentence "This sentence is not provable" is true but not provable in the theory.

2) Gödel's Second Incompleteness Theorem: In any consistent axiomatizable theory which can encode sequences of numbers (and thus the syntactic notions of "formula", "sentence", "proof") the consistency of the system in not provable in the system.

Best regards,

Eric

Botnst · #15 10-14-2003, 08:05 PM

Would you (all) say that #2 seems more completely a description of the Neo Paradox introduced in "Matrix Reloaded"? In any case, I think I'm going to have to watch it again. I have succeeded in confusing myself, rendering my theories both inconsistent and incomplete, though not necessarily incorrect, as I cling tenaciously to a losing concept.

Maybe I'll ask Mikemover to burn me a DVD copy. Hey Mike, just for my own use, ya know.

Botnst