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  #31  
Old 11-18-2003, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Froggy
Sounds like you know something about it. Could you elaborate on alleles. What are they?

How might a gay sibling help the others to reproduce?
Froggy, my man, you have asked the right source and I was really hoping he'd be unable to resist the temptation to opine.

Perfesser JJL, you're on!

  #32  
Old 11-18-2003, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Froggy
Sounds like you know something about it. Could you elaborate on alleles. What are they?

How might a gay sibling help the others to reproduce?
Only a little bit, from a theoretical perspective.

Alleles are alternative genes. Like for eye colour, say. Genes for blue eyes, genes for brown eyes. Same place on the DNA, but different 'code'. You have one from mom, one from pop.

Lets speculate. If you have an allele that makes you unable to have children (it doesn't have to be 'gayness'), how could this persist in a population? Well, lets also hypothesise that this gene has more than one effect (we know that a single gene can have lots of different effects), and that one of these effects is to help your siblings. It could help them directly (since your brothers and sisters have it with a 50% probability). For example, the same allele in their bodies may help them resist cancer, or make them more fertile..you get the idea. (This business of a gene having diffrent effects in different bodies is one of the ideas for the presence of nasty genetic illnesses like cystic fibrosis - it is advantages in a single dose (one copy) but deleterious in double dose (two copies, one from each parent).
This allele could also help then indirectly - you may be inclined to help out your siblings with time and money because of it. Because you do this, your nieces and nephews don't starve, so they survive and reproduce..all the time passing on the gene that 'made' you help them out.

This whole area is called 'kin selection' - worth a google.
  #33  
Old 11-18-2003, 09:03 AM
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Troverman, I'm pretty conservative, too. When you get right down to it, most human actions--hard-wired and other--are the product of free will. If one has enough incentive, he will countermand the hard wiring. People dash into burning houses to save their children, etc.

Being hard-wired gay doesn't mean you have to act gay, but it might mean your life might be miserable if you don't. Put yourself in a homosexuals' place. What if the norm in your society was guys with guys. Would you do it? No, you'd follw your hard-wiring (modified by environmental influences and personal code of conduct). I wouldn't wish a life of that kind of misery on anybody. I'm naturally slender, yet I eat much more than most fat people. Should I condemn fat people for being undisciplined when I exercise less discipline than they do?

Your point is well taken, but I believe it's unrealistic to think that hard wiring is a figment of some professor's imagination. It exists in conjunction with free will.
  #34  
Old 11-18-2003, 09:08 AM
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jjl, I think I just learned more than I have in a year and a half on the SL Forum. More interesting, too. Thanks!
  #35  
Old 11-18-2003, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TROVERMAN
I am a conservative thinker, and I don't believe a word of the "hardwiring" theory. Everyone has free agency, even if the consequences of a choice are disasterous. Gay is a choice of an irrational mind that gets caught up in the whirlwind of political correctness and "forward progress." No, I am not a homophobic.
Dude, homosexuality has been around FAR, FAR longer than political correctness and "forward progress", whatever you mean by that.

What do you think makes a gay person inherently "irrational"? Just because you disapprove of their way of life, you label them "irrational"? I know PLENTY of heterosexuals who are quite irrational (looks like you might be one of them), so your assumption makes no sense.

If you're not homophobic, then do you think you could "choose" to be gay? Are you capable of that, or are you not "irrational" enough?

Sounds like a homophobe in denial to me!

Mike
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  #36  
Old 11-18-2003, 11:21 AM
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I'd say we can cool it on the name calling lest we create an excuse for removal to the delete zone.

The term "homophobe" has always struck me as public relations genius by the gay rights people. Before that, there was no widespread pejorative for someone who was anti-homosexual. With the entry of "homophobe" as supposedly synonymous with "anti-gay," an anti-gay person all of a sudden was presumed to have a phobia of homosexuals, with the implication that he subconsciously questioned his own sexual orientation.

That's right up there with changing "bums" to "street people," and finally, "the homeless."

Being in marketing myself, I applaud the stroke of brilliance, but avoid the term "homophobe." I feel it's highly inexact, and probably no more gentlemanly than calling someone by one of the gay epithets.
  #37  
Old 11-18-2003, 11:27 AM
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Can we settle on 'irrational' then because it surely is irrational to believe that whether or not homo/heterosexuality is hardwired is answered by simply claiming it is 'conservative' or 'liberal' to believe one or the other. There is the slight inconvenience of evidence or reason that has been ignored.
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  #38  
Old 11-18-2003, 11:37 AM
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Mike - yes, but say what you think

I don't think it is 'political correctness' to leave people to 'do as they will, but harm none'. Homosexuality harms no-one, as far as I can see - it may even do the opposite.
  #39  
Old 11-18-2003, 11:49 AM
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were less of us heterosexual we probably wouldn’t have ~6 billion people alive and destroying our planet now. Perhaps that’s what’s wrong with society!
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2003, 11:50 AM
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I'm not sure I'm all that confident about what is and is not rational. Too often, those concepts get mixed up with what I like and what I don't like. I think it's OK to say I don't like (agree with) Troverman's statement, but I'm less certain I can say whether it's rational or not. If the definition of what's rational is what the majority thinks it is, Troverman may be right. If rationality is what the smartest guy in the world thinks, the answer might be different (but still might not be right). Rationality is in the eye of the beholder, and subject all kinds of lens distortion.

Angels on the head of a pin? Solipsism? I imagine so.

I will say that I share Troverman's Mikemover's distaste for political correctitude. It encumbers discussion something awful.
  #41  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:07 PM
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I don't like sex so I probably don't fit in any categorys.
  #42  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:36 PM
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Can you have a rational hatred of homosexuality?
  #43  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:47 PM
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I guess it would be just as possible as having a rational hatred of oatmeal. The point is that telling someone they're being irrational is often presumptuous. It assumes we know what's right, and that no other opinion can be rational.
  #44  
Old 11-18-2003, 12:57 PM
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Being rational means to have some kind of evidence or reason to support a position. What I was saying that it is irrational to hold that being a conservative or liberal can answer a question about whether or not sexuality is hardwired. When we look at genes, we don't find little labels saying that if you are liberal, these are the genes to use and if you are conservative use other genes to account for behavior.
Whether homo/hetersexuality is hardwired is an empirical question and not a political question.
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  #45  
Old 11-18-2003, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Froggy
I'd say we can cool it on the name calling lest we create an excuse for removal to the delete zone.

The term "homophobe" has always struck me as public relations genius by the gay rights people. Before that, there was no widespread pejorative for someone who was anti-homosexual. With the entry of "homophobe" as supposedly synonymous with "anti-gay," an anti-gay person all of a sudden was presumed to have a phobia of homosexuals, with the implication that he subconsciously questioned his own sexual orientation.

That's right up there with changing "bums" to "street people," and finally, "the homeless."

Being in marketing myself, I applaud the stroke of brilliance, but avoid the term "homophobe." I feel it's highly inexact, and probably no more gentlemanly than calling someone by one of the gay epithets.
I disagree. I never thought that "homophobe" was an insult. It's just a "state of being". It doesn't imply that someone questions their own sexuality, it just means they have an irrational (there's that word again!) fear or hatred of homosexuality.

Mike

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