Is homo/hetersexuality hard wired or not?

[kerry]

In the far distant past, I recall a thread discussing a similar issue. I would like to redirect our thoughts to the topic.

I think that sexuality is hard wired. If it was completely an issue of culture like say, body art, then you would expect a whole range of cultures with widely dominant practices. But while attitudes to minority sexual practices vary from culture to culture, the dominant sexuality seems to be hetero. In such a context, it seems as though homosexuality or bisexuality would have to be hard wired like heterosxuality just to emerge at all.

Comments? References? Insights? Disagreements?

[Froggy]

But then what kept the nonreproductive gene in the pool?

[kerry]

From an evolutionary perspective, is there an advantage to keeping homosexual variations in the gene pool to limit population growth under certain circumstances?

[Froggy]

From what I remember in biology, an individual is in some circumstances sacrificed to protect the species. The example they gave was honeybees losing their stingers defending the hive. I'm having trouble making a good connection, though.

[Botnst]

locally important: Is this discussion so distasteful to some people that they object to it being discussed on this forum? If all we're going to do is get dumped into the dead thread zone then its not worth the effort of exploration. Is it concern that discussion of this taboo subject might influence minors? I can respect that.

I'd just like to know where I transgressed so that I can avoid it in the future.

Botnst

[kerry]

Until our transgressions are explained, I think we must assume it was all a mistake and continue onwards.

It also puzzles me why there is such deep rooted hostility to homosexuality in many people. Similarly racism. Is there any precedent in other animal species for this kind of behavior?

[Froggy]

Thinking about it, would it ever be in the species' survival interest to have members not reproducing? That would mean fewer survivors automatically, whereas overpopulation might or might not mean fewer survivors. Could tribal war have been a factor--i.e., a famine causes territorial war, which results in more deaths than a famine would have? That seems like a stretch, I guess.

[blackmercedes]

Why on earth would anyone "choose" to be gay? To be outcast, discriminated against, and at times beaten to death? This is something to strive towards? In Alberta being gay means being fired, and legally. I have known many gay men and women, and all found life a bitter struggle. They would have been better off not being gay. At times, some even "forced" themselves into being "straight" but it never worked. In fact,that was a bigger disaster, as when things crumbled, their lives were often in a bigger shambles.

Hardwired is my vote.

[yal]

Originally posted by blackmercedes
Why on earth would anyone "choose" to be gay? To be outcast, discriminated against, and at times beaten to death? This is something to strive towards? In Alberta being gay means being fired, and legally. I have known many gay men and women, and all found life a bitter struggle. They would have been better off not being gay. At times, some even "forced" themselves into being "straight" but it never worked. In fact,that was a bigger disaster, as when things crumbled, their lives were often in a bigger shambles.

Hardwired is my vote.

Hardwired is my vote too. Its like saying someone chose to be black
Like Chris Rock said "Not many of you would like to be in my shoes...and I'm rich!"

Now the argument about overpopulation causing it has actually got me thinking. There has been an ongoing debate in the sciences about the need for the male chromosone and for males. It came to light recently that males may actually be needed for the species to survive in hard times. I am simplifying the whole article of course but I believe it was in the NYTimes.

[rickg]

Look out guys. stuff is getting deleted and locked out all over the place. Just had one of my threads deleted for some stupid reason.

[mikemover]

Yeah, this one will probably suffer the wrath of the censors as well, but while it's here....

YES, of course it is "hard wired".

Us "hetero" guys didn't just wake up and "choose" to be hetero one day, did we? You are what you are, and trying to "choose" another sexual orientation just for social acceptance will NOT have good mental consequences.

I think the population control theory is a good hypothesis also. I'd never thought of it before someone mentioned it the other day on the now-deleted "gay" thread.

Mike

[kerry]

While I do think that sexuality has to be hardwired in some way, there is reason to think that in some circumstances sexuality is chosen or modified. Unless the popular stories of prison life are way off base, homosexuality is prevalent when hetersexuality is not an option. I have no idea if the 'psychological life' of this kind of sexual choice is any different than the 'psychological life' of homosexual life under less extreme circumstances. There's also the 'college lesbian' situation. I am also under the probably mistaken impression that the sexual choices of middle aged women is somewhat influenced by the lack of available male companions.

I know there have been some studies of brain differences between hetero/homo but I haven't seen a clear argument about whether these differences are cause or effect.

[mikemover]

Originally posted by kerry edwards
While I do think that sexuality has to be hardwired in some way, there is reason to think that in some circumstances sexuality is chosen or modified. Unless the popular stories of prison life are way off base, homosexuality is prevalent when hetersexuality is not an option. I have no idea if the 'psychological life' of this kind of sexual choice is any different than the 'psychological life' of homosexual life under less extreme circumstances. There's also the 'college lesbian' situation. I am also under the probably mistaken impression that the sexual choices of middle aged women is somewhat influenced by the lack of available male companions.

I know there have been some studies of brain differences between hetero/homo but I haven't seen a clear argument about whether these differences are cause or effect.

I think prison would qualify as an "extreme" circumstance, and that changes the parameters quite a bit. When hetero sex is not an option, I guess the sex drive in some of them overcomes the "hardwiring".

Bisexuality seems to be much more common in women, or at least it has been more "socially acceptable" for them to admit to it recently. Sometimes it is a permanant "lifestyle", sometimes temporary and/or just "out of curiosity", and sometimes is simply to please a boyfriend's/husband's desires or fantasies. I think this falls under a different category than "lifetime" homosexuals who have NO desire for the opposite sex, ever.

Mike

[Botnst]

Aside from anecdotal information, what evidence is there that human gender is hardwired?

There are plenty of organisms that are effective biological switch-hitters. That is, when the pheremone concentration reaches some triggering level some individuals switch to the scarce sex but remain fecund. The evolutionary advantage of that is obvious: genetic recombination with reproduction is still possible. (As an aside, the, 300sdllll made a comment about sacrificing a worker bee to protect the hive. That's more closely akin to a lizard's tail than to losing a spouse. All honeybees are sisters except for those fed a peculiar diet that develop either male of female. Thus, loss of a sterile sister is not a big threat to the hive and is not akin to a Mormon or Muslim family losing a sister-wife).

In support of the nurture argument is the observation that many people switch back and forth across the hetero-homo-bisexual divide--these are not barbed-wire divisions but more like cloudy mountain ranges over which the entire human race stumbles blindly about.

Actually, I think the above description doesn't adequately encompass the richness of human sexuality. I think there are a small number of people who are hard-wired. Some strictly hetero, some strictly homo, but most of us inhabiting a region in between. I'd guess that each of us shift a bit in our perspective as we age and as circumstances and culture changes. For example, after I had children an undiscovered or unacknowledge aspect of myself was revealed that loved holding and playing with my babies. That was totally new and different. Still puzzles me--where did that come from?

I think its possible for these various aspects of humanity which we lump under the label "gender" attributes to be uder separate genetic/biological/cultural/personal control. The mix of their expression determines who we are.

Apologies for running-off at the mouth.

Botnst

[Lebenz]

The sex drive is hard wired. Preferences are a combination of nature and nurture. And, opportunity.

Is this a slow news day as mercedesshop?