Wow, a Jag beat a Merc! And finishing second is quite an accomplishment for the marque. Kudos!

"A gizmo-free luxury car? What a brave and wonderful idea." C&D

To EVERYONE who has raved about how wonderful Japanese tin boxes are (Toyotas, Lexus, Hondas):

You are MISSING the point of driving a Mercedes on the first place.

Just ONE question from a thousand I could ask:

You are stopped at an intersection waiting for your right of way, a drunk driver comes behind you at 50 m.p.h. on a three ton S.U.V. (pick your choice: Excursion, Hummer...) and hits you without even applying his/her brakes. What car would you prefer to be sitting in:

A/ Any japanese "wonder maintenance free" car.
B/ An S-class.

All of those who answered "A", please completely disengage from this forum and NEVER come back!

__________________
A. Rosich
CL 500, 1998
S 500 L, 1998
E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ]

Those vans are really expensive, pushing 40k for a fully loaded cargo model.

__________________
1992 Mercedes-Benz 400E
2002 Mercedes-Benz ML500

You are stopped at an intersection waiting for your right of way, a drunk driver comes behind you at 50 m.p.h. on a three ton S.U.V. (pick your choice: Excursion, Hummer...) and hits you without even applying his/her brakes. What car would you prefer to be sitting in:



my 1984 ''read last century!!!" MB 300D - thankyou.

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1984 300D Turbo - 231k....totalled 11/30/07 RIP

Here is my take: (and im not even sure exactly what we are arguing over anymore)

I like to work on and learn about cars. The only way to appreciate (on a higher level) what goes into these fine autos is to take them apart yourself and understand what makes them tick. Can't really do this with the new ones.

I have more reasons for my old Benz preference, but that is the biggest.

Now..don't get me wrong, I can appreciate advances like ESP, parktronic and so on, but they just aren't for me.

Here is a positive note: Mercedes still sells a lot of cars. Keeping the company healthy allows them to support the older models with parts and updates.

oh- I have heard through the Benz-vine that the 202 cars were referred to as "Rettungswagen," or 'life car,' (like lifeboat) as they were a solid reliable car when the company was having some issues with Q.T. Can this be verified?

Mike

__________________
'90 300SE 298k
-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

Had a:
1973 220 (gas)
1980 300SD
1992 400E

speaking of platform sharing, I believe the next Sentra will be a modified Renault Clio. This should not be too much of a problem as Renault designs all Nissan engines under 2.0 liters now and Nissan designs all the 2.0 and larger and also they are similar price classes so it should be less of an issue than with Daimler-Chrysler or Ford or GM parts sharing

__________________
currently just 1989 300SE 185k miles

I must say I have been impressed with the new VW Phaeton since I have seen it a few months ago. Its hard to believe that VW makes a 5028 lb. luxury sedan. I think it is a very nice looking car. $70,000 is going to be a difficult price to many to pay for a Volkswagon.

__________________
2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4wd
1991 Lincoln Town Car Executive
1991 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1988 Mercedes 300SEL
1972 Chevrolet Caprice Kingswood Estate 9-passenger wagon
1973 Pontiac Grand Ville
(Prior MB's: 1974 240D, 1985 380SE, 1984 190D, 1993 400SEL)

This topic has really flourished since I have read it last.

I like Mercedes as much as a Lexus and in fact- the 1981-1985 300SD is one of my most favorite cars in the world and I have no doubts that this is an extremely safe automobile.
I personally think both car companies make some of the best cars in the world, but still think the 80s Mercedes and 90s Lexus are the best.
I do want to clarify one thing though about a comment about Lexus cars being "tinny".
About the statement about the Lexus being "tin boxes", remember not to get them confused with the small Toyotas of the 1970s thru today's 2004's, (Corollas, Tercels), some years of which do indeed have thin sheetmetal. The larger Toyota cars (Camry and Avalon) are fairly solid cars. The Lexus is a totally different story. I am not too sure about the smaller Lexus, but the larger Lexus (LS series) are very well built cars.

The largest Lexus (LS 400) is built like a bank vault, similar to a Mercedes and the sheetmetal on my 1990 Lexus LS400 seems as strong and sturdy as the Mercedes I have looked at. I am a safety fanatic and I actually went around pushing on the doors and fenders on the cars I was considering to see how thick the sheetmetal was and there were no "flimsy" panels on my car- in fact- most panels were impossible to press in- even with my hand.
One key thing to remember is the "safety cage" of a car, as well as the crush zones- both of which Mercedes and Lexus have- as well as all new cars and many cars of the 70s thru 90s is a very important key factor.
The LS400 & LS430 received the highest ratings in the IIHS offset crash test and note that there was one Mercedes (96 E-Class), that did not fair so well in the test. The 03 C-Class made up for it though, as it is one of the least damaged cars I have ever seen in the test.

So I guess the answer I would have to answer would be either a larger Mercedes, Lexus, or some other larger car, if I were to have a crash.

** Take the time to look at some of these crash test ratings**:

Here are some links to a few cars in the IIHS tests:
01-04 Lexus LS430 (one of the best performing ever tested)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0101.htm
02-04 Mercedes E-Class
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0308.htm
99-04 Lexus GS430
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99006.htm
01-04 Mercedes C-Class (one of the best performing cars ever tested) http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00033.htm
01-03 Lexus IS300
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0129.htm
96-00 Mercedes E-Class (one of the disappointing Mercedes)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97005.htm
95-00 Lexus LS400 (best pick rating)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96031.htm#1
97-03 BMW 5-series
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96029.htm
97-01 Infiniti Q-45- (disappointing)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97008.htm
03-04 Honda Accord (one of the highest rated cars)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0220.htm
02-03 Toyota Camry (one of the highest rated cars)
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0202.htm
97-01 Toyota Camry
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96028.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0223.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00031.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0217.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99001.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0123.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0126.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0126.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0314.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98024.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0317.htm

Here are some not so good to BAD ratings:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00003.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97019.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97011.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97018.htm

DO NOT LET YOUR FAMILIES RIDE IN THESE VANS:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96026.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96024.htm

The passenger cages fold!!!!!



So as you can see- there are also safe Japanese cars and also poor performing German cars - and there are poor performing Japanese cars and good German cars.
I must say that for the 1980's the safest cars were Mercedes - hands down.

__________________
2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4wd
1991 Lincoln Town Car Executive
1991 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1988 Mercedes 300SEL
1972 Chevrolet Caprice Kingswood Estate 9-passenger wagon
1973 Pontiac Grand Ville
(Prior MB's: 1974 240D, 1985 380SE, 1984 190D, 1993 400SEL)

Sorry for your pain, If you think that your Benz needs a lot of work you should have a FIAT or 2 you work on them before you go for a ride and after. I do think the Benz is an over priced car for the quality of the parts that fail and because it's a Benz you should pay a little more. My 88 has 118M on it, I bought it used and the people that owned didn't fix a thing. So I have had to do a lot of work on it. There are many parts that you can get on line if you can wait. It loves to be driven down the hi-way at about 90MPH. For long road trips it feels good to not be packed in like a sardine, room for the wife, kids & dog all seven of us, ( no min-vans for me). They don't like city driving. I have owned many different cars and trucks American & foreign made and the average mileage before I give them up is 190M 345M. I had a 72 Ford LTD 390 it went for 295M, I just sold a 87 323 Mazda with over 195M on it and I beat the crap out of it, but it was a tin can. My 300TE weights in at over 4,000 lbs I feel a lot safer in it than any other car I have owned. I feel sorry for any light car that might hit me and I'll walk away. I bought the Benz because when you shut the doors the roof doesn't raise up, you can lean on the door and it will not dent it, it is a solid car.

:p Chip

Tony: I do agree with you that Lexus cars are very nice, in fact the new LS430 is actually on my favorite's list (well, it is a carbon copy of the W140, and the W140 is my favorite car overall).

But do NOT be to sure about Lexus being a completely different world from Toyota. That is what Toyota WANTS Americans to believe. But in fact, in MOST countries, what you know asLexus cars are just very expensive Toyotas: with TOYOTA bodies, engines, bagdes, names and emblems.

You buy them at Toyota dealers, service them at Toyota dealers, get your parts at the Toyota Parts depot, etc, etc, etc...

In most cases, Lexus are just slightly facelifted Toyotas: The large Lexus SUV is just a regular Toyota Land Cruiser LWB, the middle Lexus SUV is just a Camry (which by the way in the rest of the world is a plain Toyota Corona) with all-wheel-drive and new body, the GS400 is just a Toyota Carina with a pretty face and expensive leather, and even the LS430 is a bloated and overweight Toyota Crown Super Saloon.

This not bad at all, as all the Toyota cars I mentioned are very reliable and dependable. But you have to stop there, there is NO way you can compare a regular Toyota to a Mercedes-Benz.

__________________
A. Rosich
CL 500, 1998
S 500 L, 1998
E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ]

Going back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC...

Mafiose, sorry to hear about your bad experience with the C class. I don't mean to be mean or rude, but if you had high expectations, the C was not the way to go. My suggestion is to sell that car on ebay, get yourself a 1990 560SEL and expect to pay peanuts for infrequent and simple repairs. On top of that, you will have a very classy and showy car, with plenty of power.

I know that japanese cars are reliable, most of the time just as reliable as an average benz. BUT, you will be proud to be seen in a benz, you will be confident to crash in a benz (if you had to crash), and you will always enjoy driving a benz, whether it be a winding country road or cruising along any old freeway. Firm handling, no rattles, just peace and excitement.

You can get a 1990 560SEL for around $10k. Or any earlier year or smaller engine for a bit less. I trust my 86 560SEL more than I trust my best friend. Trust me!

AA

__________________
'82 300TD
'77 6.9
'75 280S
'74 280
'87 Porsche 944 turbo

Not to pick nits, but the middle Lexus SUV (GX470) is based on the Toyota 4Runner, the smaller one (RX330) is a rebadged Toyota Harrier (it's sold as this in the rest of the world) based on the Camry. Actually, the Camry is labeled as Camry in most countries that it's sold in. The GS series is a rebadged Aristo - the Carina is a different car. The LS430 isn't based on the Crown - it's a rebadged Toyota Celsior.

Why does one own a Mercedes? Is it for looks, reliability, performance, or as status symbol?

I presently own a 1995 MB E-320 with 62700 miles, a 1990 VOLVO 240 with 123000 miles and a 1998 Honda Civic Coupe 5 speed with 62000 miles. I bought both the MB and the Volvo used, the Honda new.

One of the best car I have own so far is my 240 Volvo, wow, talking about build solid, one of the Volvo forums refer to the 240 as a “brick” and that is because is solid, no wimpy stuff here. I love my Volvo I bought it used when it only had 73000 young miles, and of course you all know about the legendary iron cast Volvo engines, with a bit of TLC they will outlast any person, nice to drive but not inspiring. The Honda I bought because I wanted cheap reliable transportation, good gas mileage, incredible engine, the body metal however is a bit flimsy/ flexes , easy to dent, it drives nice, but after a while you want to get out of it and run (to stretch muscles) good car for the masses.

I also knew being rational and realistic that a used car or new was going to require service, attention, and lots of TLC. These kind of cars are not cheap to own it is a realistic assumption that every owner of a used car of the caliber of a Mercedes must come to terms and just (without sounding too chauvinistic) like a fine beautiful woman the more attention and the more lavish spending on them the better they feel and look. Mercedes and cars of their caliber are like no other cars, hard to explain in words, is something a person must personally experience, and the only way to do it is by owning one. You can never feel the same sensations driving a Honda than you will when you get behind the wheel of the Mercedes, once in it everything else becomes irrelevant.

The Mercedes E320 was the latest car that I have bought and I bought it simply because ever since I was a boy every time someone talked about luxury the one car that always pop out of people mouths was Mercedes, every time someone talked about quality it was a Mercedes, dependability it was a Mercedes, I guess it could be said that the word Mercedes was ingrain in my head. But it took the better part of my life to finally realize the dream of owning a Mercedes and finally two months ago I bought a brand new 1995 E 320, what a car! Every time I step into my MB I immediately feel good, like a king, I love the smell of the leather, I especially love the sense of security, the ride, I feel very good, very proud. It will be extremely hard to be disappointed at my Mercedes, and if it happens it will not be the cars fault it will be my own for not taking care of such a fine vehicle.

So I bought the Mercedes because it’s a beautiful car, very dependable, it’s a dream to drive, and because it makes me feel like a king.

Not to pick nits either, but I will advise speedy300Turbo to revise his/her observations more closely, as he/she states:

"Not to pick nits, but the middle Lexus SUV (GX470) is based on the Toyota 4Runner, the smaller one (RX330) is a rebadged Toyota Harrier (it's sold as this in the rest of the world) based on the Camry. Actually, the Camry is labeled as Camry in most countries that it's sold in. The GS series is a rebadged Aristo - the Carina is a different car. The LS430 isn't based on the Crown - it's a rebadged Toyota Celsior."

Well, I did not want to go into extreme detail, but if anyone checks out www.toyota.co.jp it will find out very easily that the Lexus:

LS -> Is a Toyota Land Cruiser Station Wagon Long Wheel Base.

GX -> Is a Toyota Land Cruiser Prado Long Wheel Base (not a 4Runner), just with different grill and nameplates.

LS-> Is a Celsior in Japan, yes, BUT where do you think the Celsior is based from? -> It is an streched, overstuffed and technology-landed Toyota Crown Super Saloon (as if the Crown is not sufficient enough!).

ES -> 99% Camry, sans grille and small interior details.

IS -> Same formula as the relationship with the LS/Crown, but this time with the more mundane Corolla.

GS -> It takes pieces from different donors: the Corona, the Carina and the Cressida. By the way, these three cars are like triplets, they all come from the same chassis and share most of its component, they just vary a little in size and equipment depending on the market they go to.

SC -> Maybe the only true Lexus, originally created and marketed for this brand. ALL the rest are just TOYOTAS with Lexus badges.

__________________
A. Rosich
CL 500, 1998
S 500 L, 1998
E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ]

I do agree with you. I did not know this until a few days ago, but in Japan ( perhaps other countries as well) - the 1990-2000 Lexus LS400 is called the Toyota Celsior. It is identical to a LS400, but has Toyota badges where the Lexus badges are on the USA cars. I am not sure about the engines, but I assume that they are the same. But even the Toyota Celsior- (since it is a renamed LS400) is a extremely well built, solid car- if they are built to the same high quality standards as the LS400/LS430. I would assume they are built at the same factory, but not sure. They may put a little extra care into the Lexus detail. I would guess they are built on different assembly lines, as I would guess that the Toyota Celsior is a much lower optioned car- just as some of the European Mercedes are low optioned cars. Some of the older European Mercedes are very low optioned cars. There was a blackmarket early 80s Mercedes 250SEL (similar to 300SD) that a old lady had there locally. It was very plain, in the fact that it had no power windows or locks, and a manual transmission.
I also agree about the Lexus LX450/LX470 being a renamed Toyota Land Cruiser. Actually a lot of car companies do this - for example- the Cadillac Escalade is a renamed GMC Yukon Denali, just as the Lincoln Navigator is a renamed Ford Expedition.

I am also not saying that ALL Lexus are perfect cars, just as all Mercedes are not perfect. I think that some of the newer Lexus are no more reliable than many cars, just as MB is not. I do feel though that the early to mid 1980s Mercedes and very early to mid 1990s Lexus are the best decades for the makes.

I think my biggest concern was the post about the comment about the Lexus being "tinny"- which it is not. The Lexus was was designed to compete with Mercedes and would not have been able to do so, if not for the solid sheetmetal and excellent build quality. When it was released for sale in late 1989- its popularity only rapidly gained. If it had not been a good car, the company would not have been a success.