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  #1  
Old 06-01-2004, 04:49 PM
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Should we re-instate the Gas Guzzler tax?

This thread is a continuation of a discussion started on another thread, a discussion that had absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which I think was about John Kerri.

I am advocating a return to the Gas Guzzler tax on vehicles that get less the 20 mpg, not as a fuzzy wuzzy enviromentalist issue (even tho in fact, I am a fuzzy wuzzy environmentalist) but as an issue of national security. We have pumped America dry. We are so dependent on foriegn oil, the stock market now heaves and hos as the price of a barrel moves up and down. We now have to compete with China for the available foriegn oil, and the emerging democracies of the old Soviet Union are going to want their share pretty soon as well. We are currently, in my opinion, in a war to secure our oil supplies, which means we are being driven to the point that we now have to kill to get the stuff. a future like that is just so unlibertarian.

The only way to increase the global supply of crude is to get the American public to quit wasting it. The only way to get the vast funds required for a huge space-program style effort to find an alternative fuel is thru a tax, and it might as well be on those behemoths. Ok, behemoth drivers give me your best shot.
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  #2  
Old 06-01-2004, 04:57 PM
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Kirk-
As a fellow fuzzy-wuzzy environmentalist, I applaud your efforts.

However, there is a gas guzzler tax in effect. I believe it was 15-1800.00 on my CLK. Check out any 5.0 liter (or larger) MB at the dealership. You can see it itemized right on the window sticker.
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by narwhal
Yeah, I got hit too. Are you not thinking about the Luxury Tax? In think they did away with that one a coupla years ago.
Nope, it's still in effect. I believe that trucks are exempt, though.
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  #4  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:08 PM
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Lessee, a tax to curatil needless driving. Rich folks can pay $20/fill or $40 fill and they may whine like stuck capitalist pigs, but it doesn't hurt the rich. The difference is probably less that 1% of their weekly income.

Now poor folks. poor folks get hurt. Lets say you gotta drive your 1993 plymouth to work at your $10/hour job. You spend say $20/week on gas.. Oh yeah, then there's all that tax witholding and SSI and such so your take-home is probably like oh, $300. You gotta hold out for food and rent and ultilities so now your down to $250 or less. Now some ********* wants to drain another $10-$20/week for a fuel consumption tax. That's like 8% of the take-home from the working poor.

Would a Democrat do that to the poor?

B
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:18 PM
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Tough pootooties. Were talking war here. So far we have had a war where nobody seems to be sacrificing anything, and the people at war cry for tax cuts. When my grandparents talked of war, they talked about eating dandelions out of the front lawn so the vegetables they grew could go to the soldiers and sailors fighting the enemy. The only way to free ourselves from even being involved in the Middle East is to get our needs down to where they can be met by Mexico,Canada and Venezualea nad our own alternative power solution. We need that kind of attitude to save this country from a future of constant war for oil, not mention the constant threat of terrorist blackmail.
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  #6  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KirkVining
Tough pootooties. Were talking war here. So far we have had a war where nobody seems to be sacrificing anything, and the people at war cry for tax cuts. ...
Different kind of war?

Different age?

Screwing pooor folks doesn't bother you?
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  #7  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:24 PM
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Are you sure that wasn't a state tax? I thought the gas tax was repealed under reagan, and the luxry tax was repealed in the last Bush cuts. I could be wrong.

What I am advocating is a tax on vehicle EPA rated gas consumption, not only to cut the sales of SUVs, but to get the big tanks a lot of lower income folks drive off the road and into the junkyards as well. If the car got over 20 hwy, it would be exempt. This would be done in conjunction with raising the taxable milaeage requirement over the years on new cars. I beleive thats how it was done in the bad old Carter days.
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  #8  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Botnst
Different kind of war?

Different age?

Screwing pooor folks doesn't bother you?
I don't know if its any worse than getting screwed into having your head blown off over in Iraq.
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  #9  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Botnst
Lessee, a tax to curatil needless driving. Rich folks can pay $20/fill or $40 fill and they may whine like stuck capitalist pigs, but it doesn't hurt the rich. The difference is probably less that 1% of their weekly income.

Now poor folks. poor folks get hurt. Lets say you gotta drive your 1993 plymouth to work at your $10/hour job. You spend say $20/week on gas.. Oh yeah, then there's all that tax witholding and SSI and such so your take-home is probably like oh, $300. You gotta hold out for food and rent and ultilities so now your down to $250 or less. Now some ********* wants to drain another $10-$20/week for a fuel consumption tax. That's like 8% of the take-home from the working poor.

Would a Democrat do that to the poor?

B
I wish you could stop seeing this as a stereotypical war-on-poverty issue in order to score class warfare points. In a real war, everybody, rich and poor alike should have some sacrifice to make. That's one of the great things wrong with this war. Nobody has to sacrifice anything, and its kept like that because the gutless politicians in charge don't want to lose the votes they would lose if we actually did what we had to do to win a war. Instead, we foist it on our volunteer army, and we foist it on the those who signed up for the reserves and guard, while we better off folks enjoy our tax cuts and cry for more from the public treasury, all financed by borrowed money.
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  #10  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:39 PM
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This is not from my dealership, but the first thing that came up when googling "gas guzzler mercedes". You'll see a $1000.00 tax about halfway down the screen.

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/mercedesbenz_sclass_s500sedan_2004/14348/style_options.html
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  #11  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:44 PM
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Oil beats $42-barrel record

Light crude price rises sharply after weekend attacks by militants in Saudi Arabia left 22 dead.
June 1, 2004: 4:32 PM EDT



NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. oil prices surged over $2 to set successive record highs on Tuesday after an attack in Saudi Arabia by Islamic militants killed 22 people, heightening fears about political instability in the world's biggest oil exporter.

U.S. light crude closed up $2.45 at $42.33 a barrel, just five cents shy of its all-time high of $42.38 struck toward the close following an attack on Saturday by suspected al Qaeda militants on the offices of Western companies in the Saudi oil city of Khobar.

That was the highest price in 21 years of crude oil trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, and the largest single day increase since the 1st gulf war, according to NYMEX.

The hope that the spike in oil prices was temporary seemed to be misplaced, as crude oil futures showed no indications of relief. August futures contracts were trading above $42, September, October above $41 and November futures above $40. Only December contracts were trading below $40 per barrel.

London Brent crude rose $2.20 to $38.78 a barrel.

"The security premium has been reinforced," said John Kilduff, senior vice president at Fimat USA. He was referring to the amount added to the market price of oil to reflect fears of an attack on a major oil installation, which some analysts calculate at between $5 to $9 a barrel.


Traders fear the latest incident could be the start of a concerted al Qaeda offensive to disrupt Saudi supplies at a time when oil prices are already high enough to threaten world economic growth.

A statement purporting to come from al Qaeda claiming responsibility said it had hit "American companies...that are specialized in oil and steal the wealth of Muslims."

"It's all about the Saudi story, as it looks like the attacks have the Saudi infrastructure in the crosshairs," said Nauman Barakat, senior vice president at U.S. brokers Refco.

Saudi Arabia's leaders rushed to assure the market that they were in full control after the Khobar attack, the second major strike in a month on the Saudi oil industry.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell also weighed in, saying he was confident that Saudi Arabia -- which holds a quarter of global petroleum reserves -- can provide a secure oil supply despite the attack.

"I have confidence in the ability of the Saudi Arabians to continue to provide a secure flow of oil products," Powell said on Tuesday.

Khobar has no production, export or refining facilities but Western oil firms have offices and housing in the city which lies 400 km (240 miles) northeast of Riyadh.

Stepping up security
Kuwait's oil minister said on Tuesday his country was stepping up oil installation security and was coordinating with fellow Gulf producers to protect against attacks.

Ministers from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will meet on Thursday in Beirut where they are expected to agree to a rise in crude supply limits of up to 2.5 million barrels per day (bpd), or 11 percent.

A senior cartel delegate said on Tuesday such a rise in the quota could bring with it about one million bpd of extra real crude, mostly from Saudi Arabia.

OPEC is already pumping more than two million bpd above its formal ceiling of 23.5 million bpd.


The only producer with significant spare capacity, Saudi Arabia has already vowed to lift output this month about 10 percent to nine million bpd, irrespective of cartel quotas.

Kuwait said on Monday it had ramped up production by 150,000 bpd to 2.35 million bpd.

Many traders say the market has not reacted to the promise of more oil because it is waiting for hard evidence of stock builds in consumer nations.
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:47 PM
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What do the broke folks in Europe do where fuel is already $5 or $6/gallon?

I believe I would rather see fuel in the US taxed to the point where it is $5 or $6/gallon. I feel that would have a more immediate effect of getting the changes made that need to happen. The fuel situation is going to get REAL ugly eventually and in my opinion we are just now experiencing the tip of the iceburg.

On a personal level my absolutely most fun vehicle that I own/drive around town nowadays is a Yamaha Jog scooter that gets 60+ mpg. I don't even have to have a tag or insurance on it and can drive it anywhere I want to go. If I ever get to the point where I am too broke to fill it up (1.5 gallons) then I will take the bicycle which is my second most favorite form of transportation. In addition, the scooter gets alot of looks/smiles everywhere I go. I'm kinda looking forward to when fuel is so expensive that big SUV's are NOT the vehicle of choice anymore.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PHAEDRUS242
This is not from my dealership, but the first thing that came up when googling "gas guzzler mercedes". You'll see a $1000.00 tax about halfway down the screen.

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/mercedesbenz_sclass_s500sedan_2004/14348/style_options.html
Yes, its still in affect, but trucks and Suv's are exempt. I am saying they should not be, because SUV's are popular due to the loophole making the purpose of the tax unworkable. The tax is also only applied to new
car sales. I would advocate a yearly tax at time of registration.

here's the irs regs:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f6197.pdf
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  #14  
Old 06-01-2004, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KirkVining
Yes, its still in affect, but trucks and Suv's are exempt. I am saying they should not be, because SUV's are popular due to the loophole making the purpose of the tax unworkable. The tax is also only applied to new
car sales. I would advocate a yearly tax at time of registration.

here's the irs regs:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f6197.pdf

I agree totally. I think it would be wise to take it one step further and impose a "luxury tax" of sorts on large utility vehicles being bought in areas where they are not a necessity. Some one out in Laramie, Wyoming needs a 4x4 to get around the unkept roads surrounding their town. Some one tending to a ranch or a farm would be using it as it was intended. I have yet to hear an arguement from anyone in a densely populated urban area that necessitates such transportation. Ok, you're a construction worker, no tax for you. Ok, you're a soccer mom, bend over.

I can't agree with broad-based SUV/truck bashing, simply the misuse of these vehicles for "luxury purposes". Let's tax them the same as my car and be done with it. Sorry to be less than moderate about this issue, but at least where I live, the SUV thing is out of control. I see more 6000 lb vehicles with just the driver tooling up and down the expressways as I fight traffic into the city everyday....
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  #15  
Old 06-01-2004, 06:07 PM
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There are a few differences between Europe and America.

First, European countries have a far better public transportation system than what is available here.

Second, distances between places in Europe are, on average, less than what exists in America. For example, the entire country of Portugal is smaller than the U.S. state of Georgia. IIRC, more things in European cities are within walking distance of peoples' homes than could be dreamed of at this point in time in America. Add that to the better public transit system, and you see a lowered need for personal transportation as a rule in any event.

Third, I would imagine that the fuel prices in Europe being jacked up didn't happen instantly. I'm sure that it was at least somewhat gradual.

Also, I have to ask this about any "gas guzzler" tax. How can it be made to affect people who buy SUV's as status symbols without adversely affecting people who have a demonstrable need for a vehicle that size? I'm mainly thinking about the pickup truck crowd. Using myself as an example, with what I need to do (for Scouts and whatnot), having anything smaller than a 3/4 ton truck would actually be dangerous. That said, I use my truck when I need to and rarely otherwise.

Just some things to chew on and BTW, "poor" describes me quite well...
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