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  #1  
Old 06-15-2004, 12:00 PM
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War dead

The way in which war is fought, or the level of barbarism affects casualties. Since we have a smaller fighting force we do a lot of preemptive bombing in order to risk less loss to our own troops, but this has the effect of killing more innocent civilians. Im not criticizing this, but I do hate war and am uncomfortable with the way we approach it. Im wondering how the average American views our losses in past wars that is Id think most would not realize how much greater the loss of life was for our allies and civilians. Our greatest loss was in the Civil War and no one can identify with it as it was long ago. Id always heard huge numbers for the losses the Russians took in WWII, but wanted more facts. Found this link that graphically shows what Im talking about. Check it out http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm
My feeling is were so insulated from what really goes on that were becoming more militaristic. What do you think?
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  #2  
Old 06-15-2004, 12:25 PM
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Totaly crash9. That's why europeans were not so fast in getting into any wars as of late (Balkans, Iraq) There was so much blood shed during 20th centtury that nobody wants the repeat of that. Hey my country actually is getting to the pre ww2 population numbers now, 50+ years after it. I think part of the insulation is the american media. It only shows pallatable immages so everyone could feel ok about it all. There is no gore what's so ever. Same goes for murders. There are way more of them here then anywhere else. The media here, just shows the mug shot of the purpotrator. In EU the gory results are splashed on the front pages of the papers. That's pretty shocking and I think it also helps the euros to stay more peacefull.
On another hand, this country is only 200 years old and if you look many euros were very barbaric when they were same age. It's just a learning curve.
American's also are just way more trigger happy in general. NOW is big here when there it's smell the roses more.

go left and right on the link to see more interesting animations.
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  #3  
Old 06-15-2004, 12:51 PM
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Mzsmbs makes an excellent point. World War II (aside from being a victory, which helps), was viewed by the American public through the occasional still photographs, gov't controlled newsreels, etc. Though US deaths weren't light (except when compared to everyone else), it wasn't in our faces. Vietnam saw the media as unleashed as they ever will be in a war zone, with day-old footage from firefights on the evening news every night. U.S. deaths were much lower, but the war was in everybody's face (and we lost, which didn't help). That contributed to a two decade aversion to war.

Think of the images you still have from Gulf War I - for me, it was the targeting videos for the smart bombs, with narration - "here it goes, here it goes (boom), the target is destroyed". War was pretty much a video game, where nobody (on our side at least) was actually killed - never mind the tens of thousands of Iraqi conscripts buried alive in their trenches. The war over Kosovo was the same - we didn't lose a man, and it was all a video game to the public.

I don't disagree with the direction the military is going. In America, we have lots of money and the value of the voters' children is high - so we spend more on defense than the next 10 or 20 countries combined, much of it to train our military better than anyone else (except the Israelis and maybe the Brits) and to develop high-tech gear to let our military deliver firepower as far away from the enemy as possible, and to keep them safer when they have to get close. I've got no qualms about that at all. The policy effect is significant, though. I don't know that the lack of visible blood and guts makes us more bloodthirsty, but it absolutely makes the military option seem relatively painless and antiseptic when compared with diplomacy, economic sanctions, etc. Madeline Albright, the former Democratic bridge troll (excuse me, I mean Secretary of State) illustrated that when she asked Colin Powell "Whats the point of having this superb military you're always talking about, if we can't use it?" That's somebody who's divorced policy decisions from their consequences.
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:39 PM
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Its easy to have a war when nobody sees this

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  #5  
Old 06-15-2004, 01:52 PM
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It is rarely our bombing that causes civilian casualties, though it does happen. Most of the civilians deatsh we're seeing now (since the end of major hostilities in Iraq) are caused by car bombs and suicide bombers. That's not us.

B
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:14 PM
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Rehash. There are numerous news, Red Cross and missionary group reports showing we underreported Iraqi civilain casualites, a stastic the government refuses to release. We killed them by the tens of thousands. Anyone who believes otherwise is a victim of our santized war propaganda, meant to make this easier for us to swallow. If you think a mutli story government building and the surrounding streets and adjacent buildings hit by a crusie missile is full of military guys only, you've bought their BS of the Great Nintendo War.
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2004, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Botnst
It is rarely our bombing that causes civilian casualties, though it does happen. Most of the civilians deatsh we're seeing now (since the end of major hostilities in Iraq) are caused by car bombs and suicide bombers. That's not us.

B
Sure no argument here, but to be blind sided by all of this shows a real problem that may wind up costing us any gain we may have hoped to get. In the long run its looking like a real bad plan. Meanwhile in AfghanaPakistanaQuida we may hesitate when we can least afford it because we screwed this Iraqi deal up.
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2004, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Botnst
It is rarely our bombing that causes civilian casualties, though it does happen. Most of the civilians deatsh we're seeing now (since the end of major hostilities in Iraq) are caused by car bombs and suicide bombers. That's not us.

B
IMO, we needlessly created circumstances that foster car bombs and suicide bombers, so it is us.

As for the accusation that we underreport civilian deaths, isn't it a shame that the Bush administration has no credibility? When Ashcroft made his announcement yesterday claim that our law enforcement people foiled a scheme to bomb a shopping center, I did not believe a word he said. And don't think that I am alone. It doesn't matter whether you call it incompetence, dishonesty, or a combination of those two, pronouncements from this administration are either disbelieved or discounted by many people in this country and abroad.
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2004, 03:53 PM
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I have said this before - the farce that precision weapons can win a war without incurring civilian casualties has mesmerized the Pentagon and White House into believing war can be something other than absolutely horrifying. To win a war you have to force a people to submit to your will. That does not happen without the horror of WWII. So the lesson is, don't get into a war unless you are willing to inflict a greater horror on those you are fighting than they are willing to inflict on you. It is the only way to win.

Once you acknowledge this the threshold for entering a conflict with the intent to use military force should be elevated to the point where wars don't happen as often. Jim
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2004, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dculkin
IMO, we needlessly created circumstances that foster car bombs and suicide bombers, so it is us.

...
I agree. In fact, if we'd only behave as the Al Quedistas want, they'd never have rammed f**king airliners into buildings and farms.

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  #11  
Old 06-15-2004, 03:59 PM
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Who needs Al-queda? How many Iraqis have we created as enemies after we killed their parents or their kids? If I was an everyday smuck, and you killed my kids I would spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how to kill you. How many people have we created like this in our senseless war in Iraq?
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2004, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dculkin
When Ashcroft made his announcement yesterday claim that our law enforcement people foiled a scheme to bomb a shopping center, I did not believe a word he said. And don't think that I am alone.
That is the best thing about this Country the freedom to believe whateverthehell you want to.

I for one do believe the announcement. I can also believe there have been a number of incidents foiled that haven't been made public. Actually I have more than a belief that a number of incidents have been foiled.

This ends my rare forray into the political threads.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2004, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KirkVining
Who needs Al-queda? How many Iraqis have we created as enemies after we killed their parents or their kids?
Probably about as many as the French, Belgians, Dutch, and Italians that we created as enemies when their (much more numerous) parents or kids were killed by our (much less accurate) aerial bombing in World War II, or got caught in the middle of (much more vicious and destructive) ground combat in that war.

As we saw at the D-Day ceremonies last week, the Europeans have apparently gotten over the unintentional deaths of civilians we caused while liberating them from fascist butchers and setting them up for 60 years of uninterrupted peace and prosperity. Maybe the Iraqis will cut us the same kind of slack.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2004, 05:42 PM
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The same kind of slack the French and the Russians cut the Germans who killed their kids? Don't miss the commonality: The Germans, like us in Iraq were invaders and occupiers. We did not bomb Normandy with the object of occupying the French.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2004, 05:51 PM
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Don't let your hatred of the administration lead you to questionable comparisons. The Germans planned to stay in France and Russia for the remaining 990 or so years of the Thousand Year Reich; we're turning over sovereignty 15 months or so after victory. The Germans rounded up French (selectively) and Russian (en masse) civilians and murdered them. Generally speaking, we at least try not to do that.

A large majority of the Iraqi population (i.e. the Kurdish and Shiite portions) are glad we invaded. The Shia would like us to leave now, thank you, and we'll end up doing that in some form or other. The only people truly pissed off are the Sunni minority, Saddam's folk, who are as happy about our invasion as the Afrikaaners were about the end of apartheid, and for much the same reason.

Last edited by PC Dave; 06-15-2004 at 06:28 PM.
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