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  #16  
Old 07-20-2015, 05:23 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Women

Proper pedants do a little research.
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2015, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim View Post
Drama aside, it's not that personal. Simply religion trying to make you comply with their doctrine or as I call it, meddling outside church walls. Religion has deemed it necessary so they will try get you to comply since they can't threaten to smite you or something.
Sure, most of the organized abortion opponents are religious. But IIRC, the majority of voters oppose abortion on principal but also don't think the gov should prevent abortions. I think the electorate is more nuanced than either the pro- or anti- groups would have us believe.

Take me, for example. I think a fetus is a human. I think a newborn is a human. But I also think abortion (and very early infanticide) should be up to the parents (under ideal circumstances) or the woman (if the circumstances are less than ideal). I include early infanticide -- sometimes a look at the flawed baby is enough. It used to be common (but very infrequent) practice for the midwife or doctor to smother a defective child, saving the parents from the heartbreak. It's an awful burden.

Even though I believe an abortion is ultimately the decision of the woman, I would probably not have forgiven my wife had she chosen to abort without my input. It's the family dynamic, though the legal right should rest strictly on the woman's decision.

Having said all of that, I have a lot of sympathy for the anti-abortionists' position. There is no question that, from zygote to term baby, that is a human being. If any human life is of the greatest importance in comparison to anything else, the only natural position is anti-abortion.

I simply don't believe a human life if of ultimate importance.

For this reason, capital punishment isn't an issue for me.
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2015, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzasaurus View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Women

Proper pedants do a little research.
Quote:
War on Women is an expression in United States politics used to describe certain Republican Party policies and legislation as a wide-scale effort to restrict women's rights, especially reproductive rights.
OK. Lets go with your research. It does sound more like a phrase designed to trigger emotional responses that one that accurately describes a situation. Had it been rounding up women and placing them in camps, I'd agree with you. Even the first paragraph pretty admits to that so I'm not interested in being swayed by emotional provocation. This is no different than the media describing "Record Profits" for the oil companies. Another buzz phrase designed to stir up emotions. Sounds catchy and alarming like a declaration of "A war on (insert inconvenienced group here).".
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  #19  
Old 07-20-2015, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Sure, most of the organized abortion opponents are religious. But IIRC, the majority of voters oppose abortion on principal but also don't think the gov should prevent abortions. I think the electorate is more nuanced than either the pro- or anti- groups would have us believe.

Take me, for example. I think a fetus is a human. I think a newborn is a human. But I also think abortion (and very early infanticide) should be up to the parents (under ideal circumstances) or the woman (if the circumstances are less than ideal). I include early infanticide -- sometimes a look at the flawed baby is enough. It used to be common (but very infrequent) practice for the midwife or doctor to smother a defective child, saving the parents from the heartbreak. It's an awful burden.

Even though I believe an abortion is ultimately the decision of the woman, I would probably not have forgiven my wife had she chosen to abort without my input. It's the family dynamic, though the legal right should rest strictly on the woman's decision.

Having said all of that, I have a lot of sympathy for the anti-abortionists' position. There is no question that, from zygote to term baby, that is a human being. If any human life is of the greatest importance in comparison to anything else, the only natural position is anti-abortion.

I simply don't believe a human life if of ultimate importance.

For this reason, capital punishment isn't an issue for me.
Not sure why government should be involved in it other than as a referee to ensure that the procedure is performed as a medical procedure.

I guess we have to ask what the definition of "human" is. How does that compare with "alive"?

That kinda sounds confusing. IF the host body is the ultimate decider, what if she said "I'm having an abortion."? You'd have an input but she still gets to pull the trigger or not but it might be words on deaf ears. If you give her ultimate control, what difference would it make if she doesn't want to hear your pleas or even let you blurt whatever you have to say and still go ahead?

If you follow that logic, I agree. However, would that zygot pass the same test we use to classify "dead or alive" that we use in the hospital? You might argue that it is human tissue but so was Terry Schiavo. So is a brain dead person kept alive on a ventilator. I wouldn't classify them as alive. At least, not by the same definition they declare death.
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2015, 06:48 PM
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I find your arguments tendentious and boring everywhere they appear so I think I will not reply (I've seen what happens in other threads). I'll leave you with this, speaking of "catchy". I'll probably think of this chorus whenever I see your name from here on out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhBPiNCI5A&t=1m18s

*I do blame the jezebel commenters for sending me towards yacht rock this evening! Damn feminists.
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  #21  
Old 07-20-2015, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzasaurus View Post
I find your arguments tendentious and boring everywhere they appear so I think I will not reply (I've seen what happens in other threads). I'll leave you with this, speaking of "catchy". I will probably think of this chorus whenever I see your name from here on out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhBPiNCI5A&t=1m18s

*I do blame the jezebel commenters for sending me towards yacht rock this evening! Damn feminists.
Oh dear. Without you, my life will be meaningless. You are about as impressive as someone (whose name we won't mention) who threatens forum suicide and must make an announcement.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2015, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Benzasaurus View Post


This is the war on women.

Here's a clip of Marco Rubio comparing anti-abortionism to the civil rights struggle, abolition of slavery, and, I sh-t ye not, women's suffrage.

Jez also has lots more articles about the war on women and abortion for those curious about lighthearted feminists' views (although some of the time their trademark humor slips because of, you know, rage and disgust).

Edited to add: anyone see the Jez comments section?
Thats ok, I'm sure Marco Rubio has a plan to win the Presidency without the support of 50% of the population.
oi
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2015, 07:03 PM
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Marco Rubio really makes me wonder about how dumb a political candidate can be. Who is going to agree with him that the anti-abortion movement is actually like the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, or the civil rights struggle? He has to have alienated more than 50% of the vote there, right?
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2015, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzasaurus View Post




Marco Rubio really makes me wonder about how dumb a political candidate can be. Who is going to agree with him that the anti-abortion movement is actually like the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, or the civil rights struggle? He has to have alienated more than 50% of the vote there, right?
People like Larry and others who are staunchly against abortion will see Rubios view as perfectly logical. Those are the voters who Rubio is appealing to. He is not concerned about people like you or me because we will not be voting for him in the primaries. When/if he gets the nomination, then he will more than likely walk some of the rhetoric back to try and attract a few people in the center while still appeasing the base.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2015, 07:41 PM
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I agree with you, that will def be the tactic. But I think that ancient proverb is more true now than ever: "The internet never forgets." I think he'll be the next in a long line of politicians to run afoul of it. Or at least I hope the internet clotheslines him.
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2015, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
People like Larry and others who are staunchly against abortion will see Rubios view as perfectly logical.

Those are the voters who Rubio is appealing to. He is not concerned about people like you or me because we will not be voting for him in the primaries. When/if he gets the nomination, then he will more than likely walk some of the rhetoric back to try and attract a few people in the center while still appeasing the base.
I think it all hinges on whether you accept that life begins at conception or not. Do you believe the oft quoted Jeremiah 1:15? If so, it all seems more logical. I am more comfortable using what we are using to declare death so I could care less if you have silent screams, twitching, imagined thumb sucking or even if you say it dances a tango in the womb. You might say, and I would agree that it is pre-alive. However, pre-med does NOT a doctor make. If you said the right words, it could be like music in a movie and pushes the audience to feel that the fetus is more than a piece of tissue while watching the imaging.

Rubio is another politician. Politicians have a POV that is sponsor based. What they say changes from day to day depending on who is paying his ticket and if that can get him elected.
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  #27  
Old 07-21-2015, 01:00 AM
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Well... I for one, am never going to have an abortion. All those womenz I been wit' - I dunno ...
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