Downing Street Memos....Smoking Gun? - Page 2

GermanStar · #16 06-26-2005, 10:19 PM

You mean the memos are a fraud?

boneheaddoctor · #17 06-26-2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

You mean the memos are a fraud?

meaning most of them are dreamed up....never existed and what might exist taken completely out of context.

Like Dan Rather has proven....Liberals never let a lack of facts stop them from trying to trash a good man.

GermanStar · #18 06-26-2005, 10:41 PM

No, they weren't dreamed up -- they exist and contain nothing that anyone who was paying attention didn't already know. In other words, they just confirmed the obvious.

boneheaddoctor · #19 06-27-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

No, they weren't dreamed up -- they exist and contain nothing that anyone who was paying attention didn't already know. In other words, they just confirmed the obvious.

Yeah, they show Bill Clinton was up to his neck in 9/11.......the libs want that part kept secret. That and the Fact that Hillary Clinton had negotiated with the terrorists to wait till after the election to strike....after her hubby was out of office.

Brian Carlton · #20 06-27-2005, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

That and the Fact that Hillary Clinton had negotiated with the terrorists to wait till after the election to strike....after her hubby was out of office.

OK, everyone.....................................

#21 06-27-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I'm not sure where you were in 2002, but this is hardly news.

If you enjoy pursuing this subject, I suggest an excellent place for sharing your interest with like-minded people is here: http://www.mbnz.org/forums/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=46

They'll love you, I promise.

Bot

He will have to make sure he can use the dirty seven at least twice in statement first.

Botnst · #22 06-27-2005, 08:56 AM

Now that's just silly, Bone. The memos are probably real, at least Blair isn't denying them.

The conspiracy thing started to look like the Rather fiasco at first because the reporter said he destroyed the origianl docs to protect his source.

Even accepting they're real, so what.

1. Iraq was on the agenda of the US gov since 1991.
2. Congress and Clinton agreed on a formal resolution calling for regime change in Iraq.
3. Bush's advisory team as a candidate (later his key cabinet) all supported overthrow of Saddam well before Bush's candidacy was announced. Only a complete ****** idiot could have missed that.
4. The Blair memo's are an opinion of some British diplomat, not a policy statement from the Bush government. Thus, they may or MAY NOT reflect actual deliberations within the Bush gov. It ain't a smoking gun until it is an internal document from the Bush gov.
5. Folks are all in a tizzy because it looks like something they can finally point to as new when in fact, it is nothing new. It is just internet churning and writhing.

Bot

Honus · #23 06-27-2005, 09:20 AM

Bot,
The Downing Street memos are newsworthy because, believe it or not, there are some people who still aren't convinced that Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rice, etc., etc., lied to the country. You may even know someone who still clings to the notion that W hasn't been caught lying. The Downing Street memos are not a smoking gun, but they are some evidence that Bush has lied, and continues to lie, when he says that war was his last resort.

Responding to your list:

Quote:

...1. Iraq was on the agenda of the US gov since 1991...

That's right. And W was the only one stupid enough to invade.

Quote:

...2. Congress and Clinton agreed on a formal resolution calling for regime change in Iraq...

Did that resolution say to invade, regardless of whether Iraq posed an immediate threat?

Quote:

...4. The Blair memo's are an opinion of some British diplomat, not a policy statement from the Bush government. Thus, they may or MAY NOT reflect actual deliberations within the Bush gov. It ain't a smoking gun until it is an internal document from the Bush gov...

True, but the memos are still newsworthy because they provide some evidence that can be weighed along with all the other evidence.

Quote:

5. Folks are all in a tizzy because it looks like something they can finally point to as new when in fact, it is nothing new. It is just internet churning and writhing...

Really? The memos were made contemporaneously by high-ranking, knowledgable British officials. The memos directly contradict the spin W has tried to put on his reasons for going to war. And that is "just internet churning and writhing"? Could have fooled me.

#24 06-27-2005, 09:49 AM

An Act

To establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Iraq Liberation Act of 1998'.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

The Congress makes the following findings:

(1) On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran, starting an 8 year war in which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.

(2) In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds.

(3) On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds and causing numerous birth defects that affect the town today.

(4) On August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded and began a 7 month occupation of Kuwait, killing and committing numerous abuses against Kuwaiti civilians, and setting Kuwait's oil wells ablaze upon retreat.

(5) Hostilities in Operation Desert Storm ended on February 28, 1991, and Iraq subsequently accepted the ceasefire conditions specified in United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (April 3, 1991) requiring Iraq, among other things, to disclose fully and permit the dismantlement of its weapons of mass destruction programs and submit to long-term monitoring and verification of such dismantlement.

(6) In April 1993, Iraq orchestrated a failed plot to assassinate former President George Bush during his April 14-16, 1993, visit to Kuwait.

(7) In October 1994, Iraq moved 80,000 troops to areas near the border with Kuwait, posing an imminent threat of a renewed invasion of or attack against Kuwait.

(8) On August 31, 1996, Iraq suppressed many of its opponents by helping one Kurdish faction capture Irbil, the seat of the Kurdish regional government.

(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.

(10) On August 5, 1998, Iraq ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM, and subsequently threatened to end long-term monitoring activities by the International Atomic Energy Agency and UNSCOM.

(11) On August 14, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-235, which declared that `the Government of Iraq is in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.'.

(12) On May 1, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-174, which made $5,000,000 available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition for such activities as organization, training, communication and dissemination of information, developing and implementing agreements among opposition groups, compiling information to support the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes, and for related purposes.

SEC. 3. SENSE OF THE CONGRESS REGARDING UNITED STATES POLICY TOWARD IRAQ.

It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.

SEC. 4. ASSISTANCE TO SUPPORT A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ.

(a) AUTHORITY TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE- The President may provide to the Iraqi democratic opposition organizations designated in accordance with section 5 the following assistance:

(1) BROADCASTING ASSISTANCE

(A) Grant assistance to such organizations for radio and television broadcasting by such organizations to Iraq.

(B) There is authorized to be appropriated to the United States Information Agency $2,000,000 for fiscal year 1999 to carry out this paragraph.

(2) MILITARY ASSISTANCE

(A) The President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations.

(B) The aggregate value (as defined in section 644(m) of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961) of assistance provided under this paragraph may not exceed $97,000,000.

(b) HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE- The Congress urges the President to use existing authorities under the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to provide humanitarian assistance to individuals living in areas of Iraq controlled by organizations designated in accordance with section 5, with emphasis on addressing the needs of individuals who have fled to such areas from areas under the control of the Saddam Hussein regime.

(c) RESTRICTION ON ASSISTANCE- No assistance under this section shall be provided to any group within an organization designated in accordance with section 5 which group is, at the time the assistance is to be provided, engaged in military cooperation with the Saddam Hussein regime.

(d) NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENT- The President shall notify the congressional committees specified in section 634A of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 at least 15 days in advance of each obligation of assistance under this section in accordance with the procedures applicable to reprogramming notifications under section 634A.

(e) REIMBURSEMENT RELATING TO MILITARY ASSISTANCE-

(1) IN GENERAL- Defense articles, defense services, and military education and training provided under subsection (a)(2) shall be made available without reimbursement to the Department of Defense except to the extent that funds are appropriated pursuant to paragraph (2).

(2) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated to the President for each of the fiscal years 1998 and 1999 such sums as may be necessary to reimburse the applicable appropriation, fund, or account for the value (as defined in section 644(m) of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961) of defense articles, defense services, or military education and training provided under subsection (a)(2).

(f) AVAILABILITY OF FUNDS

(1) Amounts authorized to be appropriated under this section are authorized to remain available until expended.

(2) Amounts authorized to be appropriated under this section are in addition to amounts otherwise available for the purposes described in this section.

(g) AUTHORITY TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE- Activities under this section (including activities of the nature described in subsection (b)) may be undertaken notwithstanding any other provision of law.

SEC. 5. DESIGNATION OF IRAQI DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION ORGANIZATION.

(a) INITIAL DESIGNATION- Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President shall designate one or more Iraqi democratic opposition organizations that the President determines satisfy the criteria set forth in subsection (c) as eligible to receive assistance under section 4.

(b) DESIGNATION OF ADDITIONAL ORGANIZATIONS- At any time subsequent to the initial designation pursuant to subsection (a), the President may designate one or more additional Iraqi democratic opposition organizations that the President determines satisfy the criteria set forth in subsection (c) as eligible to receive assistance under section 4.

(c) CRITERIA FOR DESIGNATION- In designating an organization pursuant to this section, the President shall consider only organizations that--

(1) include a broad spectrum of Iraqi individuals, groups, or both, opposed to the Saddam Hussein regime; and

(2) are committed to democratic values, to respect for human rights, to peaceful relations with Iraq's neighbors, to maintaining Iraq's territorial integrity, and to fostering cooperation among democratic opponents of the Saddam Hussein regime.

(d) NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENT- At least 15 days in advance of designating an Iraqi democratic opposition organization pursuant to this section, the President shall notify the congressional committees specified in section 634A of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 of his proposed designation in accordance with the procedures applicable to reprogramming notifications under section 634A.

SEC. 6. WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL FOR IRAQ.

Consistent with section 301 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1992 and 1993 (Public Law 102-138), House Concurrent Resolution 137, 105th Congress (approved by the House of Representatives on November 13, 1997), and Senate Concurrent Resolution 78, 105th Congress (approved by the Senate on March 13, 1998), the Congress urges the President to call upon the United Nations to establish an international criminal tribunal for the purpose of indicting, prosecuting, and imprisoning Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials who are responsible for crimes against humanity, genocide, and other criminal violations of international law.

SEC. 7. ASSISTANCE FOR IRAQ UPON REPLACEMENT OF SADDAM HUSSEIN REGIME.

It is the sense of the Congress that once the Saddam Hussein regime is removed from power in Iraq, the United States should support Iraq's transition to democracy by providing immediate and substantial humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people, by providing democracy transition assistance to Iraqi parties and movements with democratic goals, and by convening Iraq's foreign creditors to develop a multilateral response to Iraq's foreign debt incurred by Saddam Hussein's regime.

#25 06-27-2005, 09:55 AM

To Dculkan

1. The policy from 92-00 was not too much of a success was it?
2. Crossing your fingers and hoping something happens is NOT good policy
4. You are correct but practice it, you should check it with information more than 5.5 years old.
5. Hoping something is true and twisting it around to make it true isn't the best thing to do when you are TRULY searching for facts.

(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.

boneheaddoctor · #26 06-27-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

OK, everyone.....................................

Brian sorry to tell you but 9/11 was Bill and Hillary Clintos fault....not Bushes.

GermanStar · #27 06-27-2005, 11:03 AM

Jeez -- and I thought Al Qaeda was responsible -- sure glad you're here to straigten us all out. Now tell us how the unibomber is really Bill or Hillary.

GermanStar · #28 06-27-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

3. Bush's advisory team as a candidate (later his key cabinet) all supported overthrow of Saddam well before Bush's candidacy was announced. Only a complete ****** idiot could have missed that.

Yeah, but I thought he was just going to distribute pamphlets explaining that Saddam has a brown baby -- after all, it worked before.

boneheaddoctor · #29 06-27-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

Jeez -- and I thought Al Qaeda was responsible -- sure glad you're here to straigten us all out. Now tell us how the unibomber is really Bill or Hillary.

Hillary negotiated with OBL to delay the 9/11 planned atacks in exchange for Bill to play stupid when Sudan offered his head to us.

Honus · #30 06-27-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MedMech

To Dculkan

1. The policy from 92-00 was not too much of a success was it?

As far as I know, the only downside to our 92-00 policy was that the brunt of the sanctions fell on the poorest Iraqis. In terms of our national security, the policy was highly effective in rendering Saddam powerless to harm us. Why do you think the policy was not successful?

Quote:

2. Crossing your fingers and hoping something happens is NOT good policy

Agreed. Do you know of anyone who says otherwise?

Quote:

4. You are correct but practice it, you should check it with information more than 5.5 years old.

I have checked it with all the information available to me. Is there some information that you think I am missing?

Quote:

5. Hoping something is true and twisting it around to make it true isn't the best thing to do when you are TRULY searching for facts.

I agree with your statement, but I am not sure what it has to do with the current discussion.

Quote:

(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.

Therefore? Saddam clearly was not cooperating, but there were plenty of informed, well-intentioned people who advocated continuing to keep the pressure on Saddam by more and more aggressive inspection efforts. As it turns out, they were right because Saddam truly was toothless by the time we invaded.