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A little detail on the Jefferson family line: John Wayles Jefferson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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according to your article above, it asserts that there may have been as many as 65000 serving black troops in the confederate army. I find that hard to believe, and the method of arriving at that number is pretty shaky, considering the notoriously inaccurate numbers for even white confederate troops. If there were so many black troops in confederate ranks then I find it hard to believe the confederates would have shot all the black troops in union uniform at fort pillow- "The black troops, however, faced greater peril than white troops when captured by the Confederate Army. In 1863 the Confederate Congress threatened to punish severely officers of black troops and to enslave black soldiers. As a result, President Lincoln issued General Order 233, threatening reprisal on Confederate prisoners of war (POWs) for any mistreatment of black troops. Although the threat generally restrained the Confederates, black captives were typically treated more harshly than white captives. In perhaps the most heinous known example of abuse, Confederate soldiers shot to death black Union soldiers captured at the Fort Pillow, TN, engagement of 1864. Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest witnessed the massacre and did nothing to stop it." source- Black Soldiers in the Civil War also, heres another source on black confederate soldiers- Confederacy approves black soldiers — History.com This Day in History — 3/13/1865 "The idea of enlisting blacks had been debated for some time. Arming slaves was essentially a way of setting them free, since they could not realistically be sent back to plantations after they had fought. General Patrick Cleburne had suggested enlisting slaves a year before, but few in the Confederate leadership considered the proposal, since slavery was the foundation of Southern society. One politician asked, "What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property?" Another suggested, "If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong." Lee weighed in on the issue and asked the Confederate government for help. "We must decide whether slavery shall be extinguished by our enemies and the slaves be used against us, or use them ourselves." Lee asked that the slaves be freed as a condition of fighting, but the bill that passed the Confederate Congress on March 13, 1865, did not stipulate freedom for those who served. The measure did nothing to stop the destruction of the Confederacy. Several thousand blacks were enlisted in the Rebel cause, but they could not begin to balance out the nearly 200,000 blacks who fought for the Union."
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
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I'm sick of .sig files |
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I don't know where you are coming from. I love Tom Jefferson.
You need to get a girlfriend.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
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I heard they have been hanging out in your neck of the woods. |
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Your point? Assuming the facts are correct, what is the issue? You want to be the one that claimed an important historic figure "talked the talk but COULD NOT walk the walk"? Easier to go along with what others have said. Yes, it carries no stigma for him to be a slave owner. We cannot judge them on what was the social norm for the period. HOWEVER, it does beg the question of why someone would say something but cannot carry it out personally, does it not? My standard answer would be "The principle became inconvenient".
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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke 99 E300 Turbodiesel 91 Vette with 383 motor 05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI 06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI 03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red 03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow 04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler 11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow |
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I'm certainly not a leftie although I do support a few left leaning ideas. I would definitely say I don't hate the country in any way, shape or form. However, assuming what Tom said is correct, what is your issue? That he is judged on executing what he said was the right thing? I agree that standards have changed. Can in inform me whether standards then were such that talking the talk but being unable to walk the walk was a good thing?
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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke 99 E300 Turbodiesel 91 Vette with 383 motor 05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI 06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI 03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red 03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow 04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler 11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow |
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No woods here. We have toothless marsh Cajuns that'll make you squeal like a pig! En France!
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You guys .... Get a grip. Slavery was a normal estate of man until the industrial revolution. It was only when slaves became a burden to the economy that slavery suddenly became immoral. If we regress to pre-industrial civilization there will literally people who will sell their freedom for a crust of bread and a safe place to sleep.
We've transformed from a human-ownership to a human rentership in about 6 generations. It wont take that long to return to human ownership. Let middle eastern oil shipments end for more than a couple of years in combination with a prolongued drought in the northern hemisphere. Or a couple of years without summer like in the early 1800's. It will be appalling. |
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Now there is a cheery forecast!
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
#43
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Its good to have a healthy sense of skepticism when looking at almost anything historical.
Remember that EVERYONE has an agenda, and a reason to write history. History can be taught as a means of giving people role models to emulate, and revere. History can also be taught to discredit the heroes of the past. Jefferson was one of the Founders of the USA. He wrote some great things. He was also a man of his time---it easy to project modern sensibilities onto past heroes and tarnish them--and by extension tarnish anything they did. We all tend to be a bit binary when viewing people--they are all good, or all bad--so when we tarnish a Founder--we tend to diminish all that the Founders did. If scholars can diminish the Founders, its easy to go on from there and diminish the very ideals of the USA. The great shinning city on a hill becomes less an example of the good, and more and more just another corrupt government to be replaced by another utopian dream. I do not believe that this is "mere" history; it is part of an attack on the foundations of American exceptionalism. The fact that it may be true does not change the purpose that it is being exploited now.
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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags |
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by the way
Getting cotton to market was/is pretty important. Nowadays this field of cotton is competing on a worldwide market.
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Jim |
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Yeah, the history books fifty years from now will have a picture of B.O. with a crown on his head. Of course, even though that is B.O.'s self image, it might come true in his next term.
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2001 SLK 320 six speed manual 2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution |
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