Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Discussions > Off-Topic Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 09-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,009
A little detail on the Jefferson family line: John Wayles Jefferson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-27-2012, 04:50 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 7,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
who knows? There are thousands of miles of Southern rural roads and I haven't traveled all of them........yet. There are a lot of people in the south and many stories yet untold.
so you are saying that somewhere in the back woods of the south there will be a black guy who displays a stars and bars? Eventually you will find this man?

according to your article above, it asserts that there may have been as many as 65000 serving black troops in the confederate army. I find that hard to believe, and the method of arriving at that number is pretty shaky, considering the notoriously inaccurate numbers for even white confederate troops.

If there were so many black troops in confederate ranks then I find it hard to believe the confederates would have shot all the black troops in union uniform at fort pillow-

"The black troops, however, faced greater peril than white troops when captured by the Confederate Army. In 1863 the Confederate Congress threatened to punish severely officers of black troops and to enslave black soldiers. As a result, President Lincoln issued General Order 233, threatening reprisal on Confederate prisoners of war (POWs) for any mistreatment of black troops. Although the threat generally restrained the Confederates, black captives were typically treated more harshly than white captives. In perhaps the most heinous known example of abuse, Confederate soldiers shot to death black Union soldiers captured at the Fort Pillow, TN, engagement of 1864. Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest witnessed the massacre and did nothing to stop it."

source-
Black Soldiers in the Civil War

also, heres another source on black confederate soldiers-

Confederacy approves black soldiers — History.com This Day in History — 3/13/1865

"The idea of enlisting blacks had been debated for some time. Arming slaves was essentially a way of setting them free, since they could not realistically be sent back to plantations after they had fought. General Patrick Cleburne had suggested enlisting slaves a year before, but few in the Confederate leadership considered the proposal, since slavery was the foundation of Southern society. One politician asked, "What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property?" Another suggested, "If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong." Lee weighed in on the issue and asked the Confederate government for help. "We must decide whether slavery shall be extinguished by our enemies and the slaves be used against us, or use them ourselves." Lee asked that the slaves be freed as a condition of fighting, but the bill that passed the Confederate Congress on March 13, 1865, did not stipulate freedom for those who served.
The measure did nothing to stop the destruction of the Confederacy. Several thousand blacks were enlisted in the Rebel cause, but they could not begin to balance out the nearly 200,000 blacks who fought for the Union."
__________________
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-27-2012, 05:38 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
A little detail on the Jefferson family line: John Wayles Jefferson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks! That seems to indicate that Sally (not Sarah) Hemmings had six children, presumably all Tom Jefferson's.
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:04 PM
Botnst's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: There castle.
Posts: 44,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
May I suggest a trip to the deep rural South and be prepared to stay awhile, ask questions and keep an open mind. Leave the benz home, get a pick up truck for the trip. As you drive along southern rural roads, you will see homes with a rather large Confederate Stars and Bars on display on a flag pole in the front yard. You will meet people who refuse to accept a check from anyone with the last name "Sherman". You will visit towns where time has stood still for over a hundred years and are to this day, segregated. Some of the accents are so thick you will need an interpreter to understand them. And, whatever you do, don't mention Lincoln, Washington DC or the Feds.

This is the America the six o'clock news refuses to discuss.
Wow! I haven't seen that since the 1960s'! Where is this enclave of toothless inbreeders?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:13 PM
Chris Bell's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 901
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
There is a long article in the new Smithsonian about Jefferson and his attitudes about slavery. Although he wrote eloquently about how men are created equal he never freed his slaves and had them beaten when they did not work hard enough....even young boys ten years old.

He wrote to friends about the economics of it saying basically that one of his chief forms of wealth building was the birth rate among his slaves which created more young ones than the ones who died of old age.

He also borrowed a huge sum of money using his slaves as collateral to rebuild Monticello in his later years. Upon his death they were all sold off to pay off mortgages, splitting up families in some cases seven and eight different ways.

George Washington on the other hand freed his slaves on or near his death but gets no credit for it historically.

Disappointing.
So what...Judging someone who died 186 years ago by todays standards. Why, just another left wing attack to devalue his work and consequently the constitution. You lefties really do hate Americaa first.
__________________
I'm sick of .sig files
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:27 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,604
I don't know where you are coming from. I love Tom Jefferson.

You need to get a girlfriend.
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:58 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Wow! I haven't seen that since the 1960s'! Where is this enclave of toothless inbreeders?

I heard they have been hanging out in your neck of the woods.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-27-2012, 08:23 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
If adopting your attitude was the only solution to my problems in life I would slit my wrists first.

As for Jefferson and Washington, one can only read the history that is written. I wasn't there.

I never had much of a negative feeling toward George W. so no real change there. Unfortunately the historians til now have whitewashed Jefferson's actions toward his slaves for their own unknown reasons.

OTOH in the article it does portray Jefferson as perhaps being a more considerate master to his slaves than most, I believe. In the end though, he was unable to quit his addiction to slave labor and so his legacy will now reflect that more accurately than it has in the past. The institution was pretty much a part of the upper crust culture at the time so it carried no negative social stigma for him.
Before you go that extreme, there are drugs and religion that help those that cannot cope with reality.

Your point? Assuming the facts are correct, what is the issue?

You want to be the one that claimed an important historic figure "talked the talk but COULD NOT walk the walk"? Easier to go along with what others have said.

Yes, it carries no stigma for him to be a slave owner. We cannot judge them on what was the social norm for the period. HOWEVER, it does beg the question of why someone would say something but cannot carry it out personally, does it not? My standard answer would be "The principle became inconvenient".
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-27-2012, 08:25 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bell View Post
So what...Judging someone who died 186 years ago by todays standards. Why, just another left wing attack to devalue his work and consequently the constitution. You lefties really do hate Americaa first.
I'm certainly not a leftie although I do support a few left leaning ideas. I would definitely say I don't hate the country in any way, shape or form. However, assuming what Tom said is correct, what is your issue? That he is judged on executing what he said was the right thing? I agree that standards have changed. Can in inform me whether standards then were such that talking the talk but being unable to walk the walk was a good thing?
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:47 PM
Botnst's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: There castle.
Posts: 44,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
I heard they have been hanging out in your neck of the woods.
No woods here. We have toothless marsh Cajuns that'll make you squeal like a pig! En France!
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:53 PM
Botnst's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: There castle.
Posts: 44,601
You guys .... Get a grip. Slavery was a normal estate of man until the industrial revolution. It was only when slaves became a burden to the economy that slavery suddenly became immoral. If we regress to pre-industrial civilization there will literally people who will sell their freedom for a crust of bread and a safe place to sleep.

We've transformed from a human-ownership to a human rentership in about 6 generations. It wont take that long to return to human ownership. Let middle eastern oil shipments end for more than a couple of years in combination with a prolongued drought in the northern hemisphere.

Or a couple of years without summer like in the early 1800's. It will be appalling.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-28-2012, 04:16 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,604
Now there is a cheery forecast!
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-28-2012, 08:08 AM
MS Fowler's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Littlestown PA ( 6 miles south of Gettysburg)
Posts: 2,278
Its good to have a healthy sense of skepticism when looking at almost anything historical.
Remember that EVERYONE has an agenda, and a reason to write history. History can be taught as a means of giving people role models to emulate, and revere. History can also be taught to discredit the heroes of the past. Jefferson was one of the Founders of the USA. He wrote some great things. He was also a man of his time---it easy to project modern sensibilities onto past heroes and tarnish them--and by extension tarnish anything they did. We all tend to be a bit binary when viewing people--they are all good, or all bad--so when we tarnish a Founder--we tend to diminish all that the Founders did. If scholars can diminish the Founders, its easy to go on from there and diminish the very ideals of the USA. The great shinning city on a hill becomes less an example of the good, and more and more just another corrupt government to be replaced by another utopian dream.
I do not believe that this is "mere" history; it is part of an attack on the foundations of American exceptionalism. The fact that it may be true does not change the purpose that it is being exploited now.
__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-28-2012, 08:20 AM
engatwork's Avatar
busy
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
Posts: 13,635
by the way

Getting cotton to market was/is pretty important. Nowadays this field of cotton is competing on a worldwide market.
Attached Thumbnails
Thomas Jefferson unveiled-cotton-crop-2012.jpg  
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-28-2012, 08:25 AM
Posting since Jan 2000
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Its good to have a healthy sense of skepticism when looking at almost anything historical.
Remember that EVERYONE has an agenda, and a reason to write history. History can be taught as a means of giving people role models to emulate, and revere. History can also be taught to discredit the heroes of the past. Jefferson was one of the Founders of the USA. He wrote some great things. He was also a man of his time---it easy to project modern sensibilities onto past heroes and tarnish them--and by extension tarnish anything they did. We all tend to be a bit binary when viewing people--they are all good, or all bad--so when we tarnish a Founder--we tend to diminish all that the Founders did. If scholars can diminish the Founders, its easy to go on from there and diminish the very ideals of the USA. The great shinning city on a hill becomes less an example of the good, and more and more just another corrupt government to be replaced by another utopian dream.
I do not believe that this is "mere" history; it is part of an attack on the foundations of American exceptionalism. The fact that it may be true does not change the purpose that it is being exploited now.

Yeah, the history books fifty years from now will have a picture of B.O. with a crown on his head. Of course, even though that is B.O.'s self image, it might come true in his next term.

__________________
2001 SLK 320 six speed manual
2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual

Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page