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  #61  
Old 09-28-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Here all this time I thought the south seceded and declared war on the north. I'm wrong about that?

I think Husky is speaking from a post war stand point.
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  #62  
Old 09-28-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Here all this time I thought the south seceded and declared war on the north. I'm wrong about that?
the South sent a peace envoy to Washington DC to try and negotiate peace. Lincoln and Co refused them. Southerners are a "Can we sit down and work this out peacefully?" type of people; in contrast, Yankees are more of a "Let's allow the medium of War settle our differences" type of people.

What's the difference between a Yankee and a Da** Yankee?

Answer: A Yankee visits the south and then goes back to Yankeeland. A Da** Yankee comes to visit the south, then decides to stay. Northern invaders.
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  #63  
Old 09-28-2012, 03:23 PM
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...and then the north declared war on the south?
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  #64  
Old 09-28-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
...and then the north declared war on the south?
Lincoln conscripted 70,000 soldiers and then ordered them to head south. Interestingly, New York City wanted to secede the Union; there were draft riots in the streets of New York City in protest of Lincoln's draft.

The Day New York Tried to Secede
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  #65  
Old 09-28-2012, 04:36 PM
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Winners write the history.

Had the South won secession (they were not after victory over their northern brethren) they would call it the "Second War of Independence" (or some such) in the southern states perhaps, "The Race War".

Talk about voting with their feet -- had the south won there would likely soon have been a race war in the southern states as slaves were becoming uneconomical and the slave owners increasingly fearful of their numbers. Millions of slaves would have headed north for sanctuary. I'm sure the northern states would have welcomed them with open arms.

Lincoln did indeed propose to increase the population of Liberia through transport of 1st gen slaves back to Africa by the boatload and dumping on the shore. "Good luck, boys and girls!"

Lincoln also created an agency to direct his colonization projects. In 1862 he appointed the Rev. James Mitchell of Indiana to oversee colonization, and established a Bureau of Emigration under his head at the Department of the Interior. From that rightwing rag, Wikipaedia: Abraham Lincoln and slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #66  
Old 09-28-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
the South sent a peace envoy to Washington DC to try and negotiate peace. Lincoln and Co refused them. Southerners are a "Can we sit down and work this out peacefully?" type of people; in contrast, Yankees are more of a "Let's allow the medium of War settle our differences" type of people.

What's the difference between a Yankee and a Da** Yankee?

Answer: A Yankee visits the south and then goes back to Yankeeland. A Da** Yankee comes to visit the south, then decides to stay. Northern invaders.
Another astonishing post, along with your assertion that Lincoln was a warmongering president, which conveniently forgets that a large number of the southern states had seceded way BEFORE he took office. I find your understanding of history quite interesting.

reality check here, South Carolina seceded in december of 1860, Lincoln assumed office March 4, 1861, and South Carolina kicked off the civil war with The battle of Ft Sumter on April 12–14, 1861, less than a month later. Does that sound like a group of people willing to "sit down and work this out peacefully"?

In the above post, you are referring of course to the Hampton Roads peace conference? the one the confederates sent to Washington on feburary 3rd, 1865, TWO MONTHS prior to the total military surrender of the confederacy?

interesting link on that conference-
The Hampton Roads Peace Conference: A Final Test of Lincoln's Presidential Leadership

excerpt-

"Lincoln, who fervently wanted to end the bloodshed, gave a great deal of thought to peace after his reelection. He realized, however, that serious obstacles stood in the way of any negotiations that would restore the Union and acknowledge black freedom. The main obstacle, he concluded, was Jefferson Davis. "No attempt at negotiation with the insurgent leader could result in any good," Lincoln declared in his annual message to Congress on December 6. Davis "would accept nothing short of severance of the Union—precisely what we will not and cannot give. His declarations to this effect are explicit and oft-repeated. He cannot voluntarily reaccept the Union; we cannot voluntarily yield it." The issue "between him and us ... can only be tried by war, and decided by victory," the president told Congress. "
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  #67  
Old 09-28-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post

excerpt-

"Lincoln, who fervently wanted to end the bloodshed, gave a great deal of thought to peace after his reelection. He realized, however, that serious obstacles stood in the way of any negotiations that would restore the Union and acknowledge black freedom. The main obstacle, he concluded, was Jefferson Davis. "No attempt at negotiation with the insurgent leader could result in any good," Lincoln declared in his annual message to Congress on December 6. Davis "would accept nothing short of severance of the Union—precisely what we will not and cannot give. His declarations to this effect are explicit and oft-repeated. He cannot voluntarily reaccept the Union; we cannot voluntarily yield it." The issue "between him and us ... can only be tried by war, and decided by victory," the president told Congress. "
We'll let his own words tell his story....
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  #68  
Old 09-28-2012, 06:03 PM
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Lincoln, ( not unlike Henry Ford whom we have previously discussed), was a complex individual whose views on many subjects changed quite a bit over his lifetime--even over the years of the Civil War. To try and fit him into some convenient mold is a fool's errand.
The prewar Lincoln of wanting to save the union by freeing some of the slaves or all of the slaves, or none of the slaves is a different man from the Lincoln of the 2nd Inaugural Address-- "If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
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  #69  
Old 09-28-2012, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Lincoln, ( not unlike Henry Ford whom we have previously discussed), was a complex individual whose views on many subjects changed quite a bit over his lifetime--even over the years of the Civil War. To try and fit him into some convenient mold is a fool's errand.
The prewar Lincoln of wanting to save the union by freeing some of the slaves or all of the slaves, or none of the slaves is a different man from the Lincoln of the 2nd Inaugural Address-- "If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
Interestingly, he had a dream the night before he was assassinated that he would be killed.
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  #70  
Old 09-30-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
Another astonishing post, along with your assertion that Lincoln was a warmongering president, which conveniently forgets that a large number of the southern states had seceded way BEFORE he took office.....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but secession is not an act of war, right? The states seceded but did not invade any other states. Some of them invited federal employees to decamp as soon as possible. Lincoln took exception and invaded the states.
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  #71  
Old 09-30-2012, 07:49 PM
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Oh, ok then, Lincoln invaded the south BEFORE the attack on fort sumpter?

I guess the history books all have it wrong.
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  #72  
Old 10-01-2012, 07:21 AM
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Emotions ran very high during that period. Not at all like the calm discussion of issues we have here on OD.
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  #73  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Oh, ok then, Lincoln invaded the south BEFORE the attack on fort sumpter?

I guess the history books all have it wrong.
Was Sumter land belonging to a state? If so, it would be an invasion of another state. The state of South Carolina gave the federal troops plenty of time to depart. The federal gov chose to reinforce the garrison. A "troop surge" one might say. Even so, South Carolina's action was not against any other state.

Th ehistory books are written by the victors. You get the victor's POV, not the vanquished.
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  #74  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
We'll let his own words tell his story....
I think he more than correctly judged that the situation with Jefferson Davis, there would be no compromise.

Part of his quote I highlighted-

The main obstacle, he concluded, was Jefferson Davis. "No attempt at negotiation with the insurgent leader could result in any good," Lincoln declared in his annual message to Congress on December 6. Davis "would accept nothing short of severance of the Union—precisely what we will not and cannot give.

why-

"I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination"
President Jefferson Davis, Confederate States of America
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  #75  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:38 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but secession is not an act of war, right? The states seceded but did not invade any other states. Some of them invited federal employees to decamp as soon as possible. Lincoln took exception and invaded the states.
well, that brings the whole basis for the conflict back then into a short paragraph.

The southern states believed it was their right to do so, and the rest of the country did not.

The way I see it, it was a consequence of failure to compromise, which has been one of the strengths of this country. It is easy to label Lincoln as a warmonger, but when we look back and see just how mild his platform was, limiting the SPREAD of slavery further west, its amazing that the southern states decided that instead of compromising, they would leave the union. Personally, I side with preservation of the union over states rights in the defense of slavery, which is after all, what this was really about.

Thats why passions were so high up north, and just as high in the south. Slavery had all but died out in the north, and political power was evenly divided between slave owning states, and non slave owning states, every new non slave state upset the balance
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