another thing worth remembering are the reasons to prevent secession.

It was viewed as a weakening of the American hold on North America, and an invitation for European powers to interfere with American expansion west. Plus the presence of two American republics with a 2000 mile border would have fermented additional conflicts, and preventing that for the future was a major drive. A lot of this is well said in things like the Federalist Papers.
We forget that the US was certainly not one of the most powerful nations on the planet at the time, there was serious risk in creating a divided house and inviting interference from traditional colonial powers.

Another point that is worth considering, is the living memory of 20 years of Napoleonic wars that happened 50-60 years earlier, ultimately spilling over and involving the US with the war of 1812. That was a dramatic example of destructive warfare by multiple nations sharing the same space. Something that Lincoln especially wanted to avoid.

Think of it as WW2 viewed from the 90s, or perhaps Korea/Vietnam viewed from today, plenty of people were there and remember it.

EDIT-

Just as an exercise in speculation, its interesting to consider the breeding of additional conflicts had the South succeeded in breaking free. There would have been automatic conflict between the USA and CSA over the Mississippi, since the CSA would automatically control the outlet of that river, and the USA would need access to the outlet from the midwest. With that in mind, its possible the USA would have expanded north, bringing it into conflict with the British empire in the form of Canada.

Next, since the USA had cut about 40% of Mexico off 20 years earlier, who's to say that Mexico wouldn't use the opportunity of the much smaller and weaker CSA trying to stabilize after the war to get it back?

Since the precedent had been set, I doubt all the western states may have stayed in the union, so by present day, we could have the CSA, the USA, a much larger Mexico consisting of large parts of California, New Mexico and Arizona (only fair, since we took it from them), possibly a California Bear Republic consisting of the northwest, Maybe a much stronger Russian presence taking back Alaska, and subsequently breaking free from them as well, and whose to say that Texas wouldn't break free of the CSA and form the Lone Star Republic again?

This is all stuff Lincoln wanted to avoid, pretty soon you have the breeding of intense conflict, and a map that looks much more like Europe.

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

What would have been the repercussions of such a federal abandonment of federal property? Would that be a precedent that any government would like to establish?
Its like the bully saying--"I wouldn't have bloodied your nose, if you had just given me your lunch money"

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

South Carolina saw Ft Sumter as being within it's borders. Yankee, go home. Of course, at that time, State's Sovereign rights were recognized and respected. However, and as a result of this conflict, the Sovereignty of the States has been downgraded to "third world country" status.

Federalism now reigns supreme; the States now grovel (beg) for Federal hand outs. And, the Feds are more than happy to feed the now down-on-their-luck states federal benefits. Open wide, here comes a truck load of federal sugar straight from Uncle Sugar. Keeps the states weak, right where the Feds want them.

He whose bread I eat, his song I must sing.

Yeah, it's complex. Got it.

Would there have been a war if the federal troops had left before the south attacked?

I don't know. Do you?

Perhaps there would have been a peaceful secession. No matter how closely I read the constitution as it existed in 1861 I see no indication that any state or group of states could not remove themselves from the union.

The fact is that it was decided by war, not the constitution and not by any democratic means.

It makes the position of inseparability more permanent and less subject to reinterpretation to have 700,000 stinking bodies in the field.

The victors write the history, no question.

More men were lost in the War between the states than were lost subsequent to it; The Korean conflict, Vietnam, WWI and WWII. Lincoln acted as if it were a mere bump in the road and we should now join hands and sing Kumbaya.

BTW, Lincoln was diagnosed and treated for depression. At one point he was placed on suicide watch. And, there were more than a few odd behaviors exhibited by him both before and during the War Between the States.

He's not the only president to have had known mental issues.

See post 91.

Probably. Once the US showed it would cave in to a secessionist internal rebellion, the door would be open. If not conflict internally, certainly externally

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Yeah, I read post 91. I must have missed the Federalist Paper on the extraconstitutional supremacy of federal authority.

So in your opinion the federal troops would have invaded the southern states no matter what the south did?

the Romans knew how to deal with rebellion. find the rebels and crucify them. Leave their bodies hanging on crosses for weeks as a public message to anyone who even thinks about rebellion.

Peace through Violence.

yu'all can slice it anyway you want but the south still attacked the north, just on the weight of Lincoln's victory in the election.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Right. Don't let the facts get in the way of your education.

What fact is wrong?

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Totally off topic, but there is another article in the same issue of the Smithsonian regarding the Cuban missile crisis. I sent them at letter regarding it a couple of days ago. The article claimed that Kennedy proposed a quid pro quo of the US pulling its missiles out of Turkey if the Russians removed the missiles from Cuba and says we were lucky that Kruschev accepted it. To the contrary, it was Kruschev who made that proposal in a letter to Kennedy on October 26, 1962 and we are lucky that Kennedy accepted it.

Now back to your regular programming.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Well, there was already fighting going on, you are mistaking the level of passions related to slavery on both sides.

There is literally no way that there wouldn't be a confrontation about this.

Since the Kansas-Nebraska act of 1854, pro and con slavery factions were busily killing each other in bleeding Kansas.

If you recall, there as well, the first organized intrusion into Kansas to upset the balance of the vote for slave or free state, was by pro-slavery factions in MO. There as well, the south moved first, and they moved to upset the provisions of the act, which allowed Kansas to decide for itself pro or against slavery.

If the southerners were so respectful of states rights, why did they make a move to upset the balance and decision of the actual residents of the state?

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

I don't remember who did what when, but to me one of the most memorable facts is that the Jupiter missles in Turkey were out of date and nearly useless. Removing them really was not difficult to agree to. We also specified that we would remove them after the missle crisis was over so it would not appear we did it because of Russia. k agreed to it.

Negotiations are one of my favorite business events. One thing to remember I learned from playing poker. No matter how obvious you might feel a point is your cards are your cards and the fellow on the other side of the table cannot see them, so an occasional bluff is just part of the game.

A concession from you might seem minor but to the other party it might seem large, so it never hurts to offer it.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.