The value of Higher Ed - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #46 07-29-2014, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medmech

Thanks for posting B, being the parent of an aspiring Ivy leaguer I understand what the author is saying but the quote below does apply to my daughter. Of course she could easily go through the state university system and she can have a free ride at MSU and UofM, she is driven to go Ivy League she accepts nothing less than A's and runs a rigorous diversified after school schedule. Saying that the ROI for Ivy League education is hard for me to stomach because statistically Ivy League, MIT and Service Academy graduates blow standard university graduates away on almost every metric. I may be just an average educated former ground pounder but if my child is so driven that she wants to go Ivy League I'm not going to tell her otherwise.

So extreme are the admission standards now that kids who manage to get into elite colleges have, by definition, never experienced anything but success. The prospect of not being successful terrifies them, disorients them. The cost of falling short, even temporarily, becomes not merely practical, but existential. The result is a violent aversion to risk. You have no margin for error, so you avoid the possibility that you will ever make an error. Once, a student at Pomona told me that she’d love to have a chance to think about the things she’s studying, only she doesn’t have the time. I asked her if she had ever considered not trying to get an A in every class. She looked at me as if I had made an indecent suggestion.

Apologies for getting back to this thread so late.

If I were you I would take a careful read on your kid and consider whether she is grad school material. If she is not, send her to the Ivy's. She'll get the key to the door and it will be up to her to perform once she's in. But that key is huge.

If she is likely bound for grad school (or med school, given your family history) then try to get her into Ann Arbor. It's one of the best public U's in the USA and if she doesn't drown in the morass, she will do well in grad school.

Once grad school bound, then shoot for the Ivy's. Their graduate mentorship is much better than most public U's and are a near guarantee of a tenure track after PhD at a modest school or a high quality post doc which accelerates the successful post doc into the big leagues. The neat thing about grad school is that the students are highly subsidized!

The attenuation up the educational food chain is nowhere near linear. The higher she reaches, the difficulty doubles-down.

Botnst · #47 07-29-2014, 10:57 PM

Remember that Gore, Kerry and Bush all were Ivy Leaguers. And Bush did better in school than Gore.

Yes folks, mediocrity is no impediment with an Ivy League education.

Hahhahaha!!!

Dudesky · #48 07-29-2014, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Check this out. Yeah, I posted it because it confirms what I already believe. But what do y'all think?

Ivy League Schools Are Overrated. Send Your Kids Elsewhere. | New Republic

Aren't those politician farms?

Benzasaurus · #49 07-29-2014, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Apologies for getting back to this thread so late.

If I were you I would take a careful read on your kid and consider whether she is grad school material. If she is not, send her to the Ivy's. She'll get the key to the door and it will be up to her to perform once she's in. But that key is huge.

If she is likely bound for grad school (or med school, given your family history) then try to get her into Ann Arbor. It's one of the best public U's in the USA and if she doesn't drown in the morass, she will do well in grad school.

Once grad school bound, then shoot for the Ivy's. Their graduate mentorship is much better than most public U's and are a near guarantee of a tenure track after PhD at a modest school or a high quality post doc which accelerates the successful post doc into the big leagues. The neat thing about grad school is that the students are highly subsidized!

The attenuation up the educational food chain is nowhere near linear. The higher she reaches, the difficulty doubles-down.

Agree 100%

And it doesn't hurt to talk about future career paths and make appointments in the area with profs and deans of graduate programs in those fields. She can ask them about the career and about what undergrad schools are considered to have the best programs for those majors. If nothing else, the meetings and interviews will give her more info and perspective on what's up ahead.

aklim · #50 07-29-2014, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

The Affluent are contributing Money to those Universities not as a Gifts but as an Investment in their Kids Education. They don’t want their Investment shared with just anyone.

The other part of it is that if a degree could be had by anyone at those Universities then a Degree there would not have the same interest to potential Employers.

Do you blame them? Would you want your daughter hooking up with the town druggie? If I were a parent and I have a way to stop it without bad feelings, you bet I will. People who want to share have a reason. Either it is because it improves THEIR average or buy them immortality. If I am broke, you bet I will want to average my salary with Bill Gates. If I were Bill Gates, I might want to "donate" a hospital wing for tax reasons and/or to buy myself immortality which might rub off on my kids. Or I might want to do something to please my deity, wife, etc, etc.

aklim · #51 07-29-2014, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

People that are considered Good Looking are also more likely to be hired.

I did say that for that scenario, all things being equal but yes, why would I not prefer to hire eye candy over some ugly clown.

Angel · #52 07-29-2014, 11:43 PM

Its been my experience in life (I graduated a State U after some .mil time...)... has been that "you are who you know". (ie: the more friends you have, and the higher up they are, the higher up you will be)

I'm gonna guess the ivy league students 'know' more richer people than State U students do. I can't back this up with statistics, am I wrong ?

-Happy with the life I have

Skid Row Joe · #53 07-30-2014, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Got a link to those statistics? My experience with Ivy League grads is mostly that apart from their sense of entitled elitism, they're not significantly different than grads of other schools.

Other than the use of the word elitism (since that is very subjective....) - IME, that is 100% correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suginami

That is exactly in line with my experience.

X 2.....

Skid Row Joe · #54 07-30-2014, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

Where are you getting your information, that you seem to believe?

You cited NO links, nor personal examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

You are correct. Everything I said is entirely a guess and has no connection to real life. It is all just a fantasy; what I want to believe is true.
None of it has to do with My Life Experiences or Common Sense.

I thought this was the case.

Skid Row Joe · #55 07-30-2014, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medmech

Thanks for posting B, being the parent of an aspiring Ivy leaguer I understand what the author is saying but the quote below does apply to my daughter. Of course she could easily go through the state university system and she can have a free ride at MSU and UofM, she is driven to go Ivy League she accepts nothing less than A's and runs a rigorous diversified after school schedule. Saying that the ROI for Ivy League education is hard for me to stomach because statistically Ivy League, MIT and Service Academy graduates blow standard university graduates away on almost every metric. I may be just an average educated former ground pounder but if my child is so driven that she wants to go Ivy League I'm not going to tell her otherwise.

So extreme are the admission standards now that kids who manage to get into elite colleges have, by definition, never experienced anything but success. The prospect of not being successful terrifies them, disorients them. The cost of falling short, even temporarily, becomes not merely practical, but existential. The result is a violent aversion to risk. You have no margin for error, so you avoid the possibility that you will ever make an error. Once, a student at Pomona told me that she’d love to have a chance to think about the things she’s studying, only she doesn’t have the time. I asked her if she had ever considered not trying to get an A in every class. She looked at me as if I had made an indecent suggestion.

Still waiting on ALL those LINKS to substantiate (any of) your claims?

JB3 · #56 07-30-2014, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Check this out. Yeah, I posted it because it confirms what I already believe. But what do y'all think?

Ivy League Schools Are Overrated. Send Your Kids Elsewhere. | New Republic

imo the actual value of higher education isnt anywhere near the perceived value. i view college as a very expensive day care where an individual can mature and figure out just who they actually are.

i went to a decent college, AND a trade school. at this point in life i use neither education, so go figure. would i have arrived at the same point just giving myself those years to mature and figure out what i wanted to do? maybe, maybe not. id have a hell of a lot more cash in my pocket though

aklim · #57 07-30-2014, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

imo the actual value of higher education isnt anywhere near the perceived value. i view college as a very expensive day care where an individual can mature and figure out just who they actually are.

i went to a decent college, AND a trade school. at this point in life i use neither education, so go figure. would i have arrived at the same point just giving myself those years to mature and figure out what i wanted to do? maybe, maybe not. id have a hell of a lot more cash in my pocket though

Your value is one thing. The employer's value is more important. You might think your PhD in Basket Weaving is great. He/She might not. My date might think I am more attractive in a suit with tie while I would prefer to be in torn shorts and a "wife beater".

Say you didn't get your education. Would you have gotten the same opportunities you enjoyed? If you were working for Dad's company, WGAS. Kim Jong Un might not need to even go to past grade school for that matter. I know we spent a lot of money on the wife's nursing education but so what? She got paid many times over throughout the years so it pays back.

The first priority of college is to get a job so you can pay it back and have something for the future. Doesn't matter what you think or what you want. It is a financial decision. If you can pay it back, you can talk of soul searching, maturing and what not with your buddies in the unemployment line. Now, if you want to talk about "I'm getting to be an MD and I would like to specialize in Geriatrics over Cardiology because Geriatrics appeals to me more." go for it. Either certification would make you money. Once you can make the money, you can talk of taking up Basket Weaving because it speaks to your soul. Before then, you are wasting money.

iwrock · #58 07-30-2014, 01:26 PM

My $0.02 - The network of people I met in college is worth more to me than what I learned in class.

Well, the memories are technically priceless.

MTI · #59 07-30-2014, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

The first priority of college is to get a job so you can pay it back and have something for the future.

That would certainly be true if it were a trade school, but universities aren't particularly good trade schools. I surmise that's your impression about what higher education should be. Others, myself included, came out of college with a greater understanding of "how to learn" and applied those skills to the various careers I've had. Just my point of view.

aklim · #60 07-30-2014, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

That would certainly be true if it were a trade school, but universities aren't particularly good trade schools. I surmise that's your impression about what higher education should be. Others, myself included, came out of college with a greater understanding of "how to learn" and applied those skills to the various careers I've had. Just my point of view.

IMO, any education has to be viewed FIRST as whether it can pay for itself or not financially. After which, you can debate about which avenue moves your soul. "how to learn" is a wonderful thing, no doubt about it. If the kind of jobs I can get after I know "how to learn" doesn't care whether I can or cannot learn, I wasted money and anything else is fluff. As I said, you can debate philosophy better on a full stomach in a comfortable house and your warm bed a lot better than being in the elements, cold and hungry. If your "how to learn" knowledge can get you a job you couldn't have had without it, IOW the employer is willing to pay and that extra can compensate you for your expenditure, why not?

If I spend $100 on a tool that saves me $20 and can't use it again till who knows when, it costs me money. If I can make me $20 more a week for the next 20 years, it is a good investment. After that, we can talk about existential values, learning to learn and whatever else.