The Japanese Car Quality Debate........... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rickg · #31 12-19-2003, 04:05 PM

I have to laugh at my kids' friends that are driving cars from the 70's, thinking they have the greatest thing since sliced bread

One of my son's friends has a late 70's Ford Fairmont, and he thinks it's an awesome car.
No, cars from the 70's were pretty anti-climatic. Lessee...unleaded gas, no horsepower, anything steel rusted, anything plastic cracked, and on and on.
And the models....Vega, Pinto, Monza, Fairmont, Mustang II, Gremlin, Pacer.......

blackmercedes · #32 12-19-2003, 04:33 PM

The 1970's. Flashback, man.

I had a 1976 Camaro that had a honkin' huge 5.7L V-8 with a four barrel carb and dual exhaust, from the factory. 165 honkin' horsies to pull it's 3700+lb fat assed body around. Muscle car!

Our 1981 Honda Accord only had 80 ponies, but lighter weight and better gearing meant it could run with the Camaro.

Find me anything made from 1974 to 1985 and my C230 can out drag it, out top speed it, out crash-protection it, out handle it, out luxury it, and out last it. Cars from that era suck. Nobody had galvanized steel. The Europeans were years away from figuring out Air Conditioning. The Japanese cars were rusting on the docks.

Flash Gordon · #33 12-19-2003, 04:53 PM

Even though the subject has changed somewhat but it is getting interesting. I had one of the last real muscle car, 1970 Duster 340. Huge 850cfm Carter carb, dual throaty exhaust, powered front disc brakes, rear speaker, unsilenced air cleaner, 240 net hp, over 300 pounds of torque, with A/C

One of the most ENJOYABLE car I ever had! Sold it to my brother-in-law when he moved to Brooklyn and I moved overseas for a job assignment. He had four flat tires one morning during his first week in Brooklyn. Some bastard slashed all the tires

Even though it was not my car anymore, I felt like someone had violated my property. That's how much I liked that car

Botnst · #34 12-19-2003, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
We've had great Japanese makes in our house, and terrible ones too. Our current "Mall Car" 1988 Mazda 626 is coming to the end of it's useful life. In the nearly 300K we've driven the car over the years, it has had very little go wrong with it. It rattles like a baby's toy, drives like crap, but is a deadly reliable car.
...
We're not sure if we'll replace the 'ol gal 626, since we really only need two cars....

John, we've compared notes on this before. I still have my '89 626 with 210,000 miles and it still runs reliably. A/C works. I have some issues with the driver's door failing to unlock occasionally and a water leak into the trunk that results in a mouldering aroma and the paint has a silver-giraffe pattern with ruddy splotches. The linkage is so loose that shifting is a matter of faith and intuition. My kids HATE it! But guess what the teenager's gonna drive to school?

Anyway, I've never owned such a reliable car. It has cost next to nothing to maintain, gets reasonable mileage, and still has a tight suspension and good compression.

Uh Dino.....just thought I'd throw that in.

I would love for my next car, any car, to give me that level of cheap reliable service.

Botnst

Zeitgeist · #35 12-20-2003, 02:38 AM

I've stated it before, but I'll put a lonely plug in for the mild mannered '96/'97 Passat tdi's.

By the late '80's VW clearly had taken notice of how Honda and Toyota had revolutionized the marketplace with their high value and quality to the dollar products. I think the '95-'97 Passats (especially the tdi's) are a testament to an effort to advance the overall quality VW's product lineup (they had a long way to go).

At 140k our Passat has achieved the boring appliance-like reliability of the Camry or Accord, yet can still display a little soul, something those two will never have. It's not much of an enthusiasts vehicle, but it sure provides a great backup to the car that I am enthusiastic about--my MB.

I'm grateful to the Japanese for their important contribution to the automotive world, but I've never owned, and probably never will own one of their wonderful products.

placo1 · #36 12-20-2003, 01:04 PM

Z, I've had the completely opposite experience with my 97 VW Golf. Thing was in the shop constantly and was by far my worst experience with any auto I've ever owned. VW interiors and exterior trim are not built to last at all, everything was falling apart at 30K miles. To top the constant problems every dealership I brought it too treated me very poorly. When the wiring harness went up in smoke VW NA followed up with the KO Punch, I'll never buy a VW again.

Can't imagine someone spending $80k on a Phaeton!!

Zeitgeist · #37 12-20-2003, 01:26 PM

Yes, I've heard some similar stories from others with Mexico-built Golfs/Jettas/New Beetles.

The Passats are Germany-built units, and appear to experience fewer of those loose interior, wiring, and component failure issues. I'm operating on my own anecdotal experiences and observations though, so maybe stats out there will reveal these cars to be more problematic than I'm aware of. In my ignorance, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another if given the opportunity.

BTW: So far I've replaced a waterpump, inner CV boot and rear wheel bearings -- that's it. It's been the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned -- of course it's also the newest and most expensive as well.

lietuviai · #38 12-20-2003, 05:27 PM

Our last Japanese car was a '92 Camry with a V-6 and automatic. I must emphasize that it was our LAST Japanese car. This car was a total POS. We got rid of it over a year ago with only 66K miles on it. The car was OK the first couple of years but then all the plastic stuff started breaking. The worst things were the little plastic tabs that held the power window cable to the window assemblies. When the first one broke, I went to the dealer hoping that I could just replace the little 1.00 piece of plastic. WRONG! You had to buy the whole p/w regulator assembly for something like $250. No way was I going to pay that. I took some bailing wire and just wired the thing back together. But in time all the rest of the windows broke. The engine had problems too. It would just die for no reason when you stopped after a long drive. The engine valves at times made it sound like a diesel. It was a PIA to work on too. I could never work on it with out getting some good cuts on my hands. The oil filter was angled in such a way that it was impossible to remove it with out making a horrible mess in the engine compartment. Yes you also had to use a special wrench attachment to get it loose in the first place.
I could only get to 4 of the 6 spark plugs. It looked like you had to remove the intake manifold to get to the last 2 so I never changed them. No matter what combination of flex joints and special spark plug sockets could get to them. The front end could not be aligned either. The last straw was a strange noise started coming from the transmission.
All this and more ( I could go on and on) from a car that got excellent maintenance from new.
Never again!

stephenson · #39 12-20-2003, 10:17 PM

Gotta compare apples and apples and then account for the difference in cost.

LS430 vs S class is likely fair ... do the math on new price, mandatory maintenance and resale ... likely the Jap car wins.

Now, phrase the question: After 15 years with average care, which car looks better and has a greater likelihood of going another 15 years? Answer: MB

One thing I do like about the Japanese dealers is that they don't tend to be as smarmy and snitty as the MB dealers.

akry · #40 12-22-2003, 03:06 AM

Interesting.... I will throw in my 2-cent worth......

I bought my Acural TL Type S to replace my good, old 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited. Funny observations by some of the members as I am experiencing the same thing.... Mostly increase in wind noise, air leaking through door/window control panels, and most annoying yet, increase body-flex(my driveway is slightly slope up, so it's very apparent). And even though my Jeep GC didn't has quality parts as Acura, the assembly, as a whole, seemed to be more consistant.... I experienced NOTHING other than normal wear.....

And to add to the insult, my Acura just had a new tranny put in because of some sort of design flaw, that the tranny has the tendency of pre-amature wear 3rd gear clutch pack..... Reliable?? Hm... Not sure..... Quality build?? Keep your fingers crossed...... From April 11th, 2001 - current, I have more small, annoying rattles in my Acura than in my Jeep (late 1992 - April 2001)....... But I do have to say, Toyota builds some very tight car..... My friend's 1993 Camry still feels as solid as when it was new, but again, increase in wind noise and small rattles(around dash too random to pin point).......

But one thing for sure, no automakers build good chassis as German makers do......They are hard to compare when they are fairly new... But years down the road, it's so apparent, it's disgusting.......

LV202 · #41 12-22-2003, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akry
And to add to the insult, my Acura just had a new tranny put in because of some sort of design flaw, that the tranny has the tendency of pre-amature wear 3rd gear clutch pack..... Reliable??

I've read that Hondas/Acuras of late have tranmission problems. That's a bummer to hear. There is a petition on petition.com about it. But I can't remember the details.

gerryvz · #42 12-22-2003, 05:36 AM

In February 1992 I purchased a new Honda Civic DX, with the 1.5-L four cylinder. This was the first year of the new "aero" style Civics (which today's model, just two generations later, is not appreciably different from).

I put 125,000 miles on it until March of 2000, when I sold it. The only problems I ever had with the car (I did oil+factory filter changes religiously at 2,000-4,000 miles), were as follows:

- 5,000 miles: factory recall for an oil pressure sensor
- 75,000 miles: water pump failed
- 120,000 miles: distributor failed (weak distributors were a flaw of many Hondas)

I had an independent shop in the Bay Area and here in Portland OR (where I moved at the end of 1995) do factory maintenance schedules - valve adjusts, etc. The car other than a few door dings, was in practically new condition when I sold it.

Purchase price: $9,700 out the door
Resale price: $4,500 w/125,000 miles

Average MPG was in the low 30s. I could get over 40 MPG on long trips, even at 70-80 MPG. I only received one ticket the entire time I owned the car, it was invisible as far as cops were concerned. I drove that car faster than any other sports car or MB that I owned before or since.

Would I buy another Honda? Yes. If I had a need for one, as a cheap dependable transportation appliance, absolutely.

Do I want to buy another Honda? No. I prefer the design and philosophy of MBs, and enjoy the hobby of keeping mine on the road. And am willing to pay to do this.

Would I recommend a Honda to a friend? Yes, if they were looking for a cheap, dependable transportation appliance.

Caveat: I currently own a 2002 Honda motorcycle. Just as good as the car, and like new at 12,000 miles.

Cheers,
Gerry

cwa · #43 12-22-2003, 11:31 AM

I've never owned any Japanese car but my wife swears by Subaru. Her 2000 Outback Ltd is a nice car and so far no noticable wind noise or rattles (52K on it). This is her 3rd Subaru all of them the Legacy wagon type.

She hated my '79 300D but loves my '87 300TD.

I have to agree with the "Japanese appliance" theory.

I once talked to a MB mechanic about when he got a good look at a wrecked Lexus and said that there is no comparison to a MB. The paint is totaly non-repairable on a Lexus. A scratch means a new paint job on the Lexus whereas the MB paint can be buffed out.

lietuviai · #44 12-22-2003, 12:55 PM

The paint issue isn't limited to Lexus. The Camry we got a small crease in the door by someone who could negotiate a parking space. The party at fault agreed to have it repaired for us by anyone we chose. So we took it to a Toyota dealer. What was to be only a lower door panel repair became nearly an entire car repaint because the paint could not be matched in that one body panel alone. The dealer at first tried to pass it off by painting only the affected body panel thinking we wouldn't be able to notice any difference. How wrong they were! We refused to accept anything less than a perfect match. It took 4 return trips until we were satisfied enough with their work. There were other issues in addition to their poor paint matching, including overspray, new damage,etc.
The only good thing was they didn't charge anything more than their original estimate.

Angel · #45 12-22-2003, 10:12 PM

1990 Camry- 217k only repairs were ign coil (I hosed it down TOO well w/ the pressure washer...) Timing belts on schedule and now I'm fixing a gas tank vent hose leak.
Okay, maybe not trouble free, but a crapload better than the Corrado (which has to be rock-bottom as far as VW's quality goes...)

-John