The Japanese Car Quality Debate........... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

placo1 · #1 12-17-2003, 04:49 PM

The vast majority of people seem to think that Japanese cars are built as well if not better than German cars but I feel a bit different based on my experience.

In 2000 I purchased a new Accord V6 Coupe which I owned for 2.5 years / 78K miles. During that time the car didn't have any mechanical troubles that required attention.....BUT when it hit 60K I noticed a significant increase in rattles, vibration, wind noise and trim wear. I traded that car in for a 2002 CRV (also purchased new) and I'm noticing the exact same things happening. The CRV currently has 59K on it and is starting to show major signs of wear. At highways speeds there is a slight leak in the window seal causing increased wind noise, the drivers seat shifts around when you accelerate, it vibrates much more than it used to and idles rougher. The tranny also doesn't shift as smooth as it did. Considering it's never seen a northest winter I was shocked to see corrosion forming on the undercarriage. I've done all maintenance by the book on this car (either myself or at the dealer), it's not abused and it's kept clean.

The interesting thing is that none of the items I've mentioned require the car to go into the shop but they certainly take away from it's appeal. I know it will continue to work flawed/flawlessly for another 100K but I sure don't like driving it as I did when it was new. I considered replacing worn items until I realized how expensive parts are (much more than MB). I can't justify spending the $$ to keep it like new knowing there won't be any return on the investment.

Personally I'd rather have a car that has some minor mechanical issues but can be maintained as new for decades.

The Warden · #2 12-17-2003, 05:36 PM

Someone once described Japanese cars as appliances...meant to get the job done and be disposed of when you're done with them. I think that's a pretty fair assessment.

Every Japanese car I've seen with anywhere over 50K miles or so (except a friend's mom's Lexus LS400) had a pretty unhappy looking interior, regardless of how carefully the owner maintained the car. True, many high-mile Japanese cars are capable of getting someone from Point A to Point B, but that's about all they can do...no delivering anyone in any semblance of comfort (I'm 6'0" and have yet to find a Japanese car that I can truly fit into comfortably for even a short period of time) or anything like that.

I also have personal issues with our trade relationship with the Japanese; it's wayyyyyyy too one-sided IMHO.

For those reasons, there's no way anyone could get me to buy a Japanese car...I'll stick with American or European.

AustinsCE · #3 12-17-2003, 05:51 PM

That and Japanese cars are so bleeding ugly!

Ashman · #4 12-17-2003, 06:06 PM

my girlfriend has a 2000 honda civic coupe, and it has 60k on the odo and seems to be just fine. all we do are oil changes, overall, I am very pleased with the car. It has one rattle from what I can tell, other than that, it seems just fine.

Wear on the car does not seem excessive, and she puts a lot of miles on it. It gets excellent gas mileage.

I may just pick one up for myself as a daily driver because of the fact that the gas mileage and reliability seem to be great.

Alon

LV202 · #5 12-17-2003, 06:17 PM

On my Japanese car I expect it not to leave me stranded, but anticipate all the rattles, plastic pieces breaking off etc. The craftsmanship isn't very good, but it'll drive out forever. That is what I expected from this car. My Toyota has almost 100k and leaks no oil or anyother fluid. The locks are starting to go bad, the sun visor broke, the paint is peeling in some areas (only six years old too), and the cup holder broke. It is plain looking, and getting uglier my minute but I can probably put another 150k on it easy. It serves its purpose. I wouldn't consider comparing it to the build quality of my Benz though.

Hatterasguy · #6 12-17-2003, 07:00 PM

placo1 I have noticed the same thing with my Camry but with a lot more milage. My car is reaching the 10 year old mark and I can see the ageing process speeding up. The driveline can not be faulted with 135k on it. Fires right up when covered in snow or at 0 degrees. Good power and smooth(for a four cylinder) The suspension and body seem to be starting to show there age.
The interior looks fine still, and it drives ok. The parts are to expensive to bring it back up to new spec. The rear shocks alone cost $820 installed, front probably the same. Parts for these cars get real expensive fast. It's cheper to buy a newer one.

engatwork · #7 12-17-2003, 07:04 PM

I just recently replaced a distributor cap on my boss's 1986 Toyota Camry. It had left him stranded at one of the local shopping centers. The car has 323,000 miles on the original engine/cylinder head/tranny and when you drive the car you can tell that it has alot of miles because all of the noises that the front suspension makes. Just within the past 40k miles he installed rebuilt cv joints because the original ones finally gave out on him. The car is still his daily driver.

90free400e · #8 12-17-2003, 07:05 PM

my 400e just hit 203,000 miles, and looks 20 times better than a Honda/Acura would with 150,000 miles. The engine is what is meant to last on those cars, not the exterior/interior. I also have a 92 civic hatchback as a project car, and the appearence is nowhere near that of the mercedes.

bjcsc · #9 12-17-2003, 07:25 PM

Tough question. There are a lot of variables. For example a person treats a toyota or honda a lot differently than they do a BMW, Porsche, or Mercedes. If I had to pick a top car as far as durability goes, it would be tough, based on the following examples:

My sister had an early 80's Honda Civic hatchback, you know the silver one that was everywhere. She bought it with 170,000 miles on it, drove it until it had 260,000 on it, and didn't put one dime into the car except for fuel and oil changes. She then sold it for $200 less than she paid for it 8 years later.
My company has a 1993 Ford F350 4x4 CrewCab Longbed that we use for hauling feed and horses around. It just turned over 194,000 miles, many of them hard ones.
I had a friend who had a Toyota truck, the little one, 2wd, and he had 340,000 miles on it when he sold it.
My own CJ7 Limited, that I bought 5 years ago with 160,000 miles on it, now has 201,000 miles on it and goes strong. Everything still works - including the air conditioning and I use it hard - on trails, dragging pastures, etc..

I think that any car is only as good the maintenance it gets, German, Japanese, whatever. MB's are usually very well maintained, but that does not mean they are inherently better. We have all seen the ones that weren't maintained, and they look just like the other makes that have not been maintained. Not to mention, it's not really fair to compare a $15,000 Japanese car to a $50,000 German car. Speaking of maintenance, my 300CD is going in Monday for its 120,000 mile service. Not once has its regularly scheduled maintenance been skipped - not once in its history - and it shows. I think a fair comparison would be a $/mile, including the purchase price, but even that's open to more variables. Tough question to answer...

placo1 · #10 12-17-2003, 08:53 PM

bjcsc,

You make some good points which I definitely considered when typing this up.

Regarding comparing a $50K MB (92 300E) vs a $20K Honda (02 CRV) true there certainly will be a difference of materials but in reality that MB already has 80K miles and is 12 years old. I've seen many members cars on this forum which have cars that look and feel brand new. The reason you don't see people spending the same amount of money on a Honda/Toyota, well actually two reasons. 1. Too expensive to change everything and 2. No one will value the condition of the car if you decide to sell it. I know vehicles are not investments (far from it actually

) but I think you see my point.

I'd be curious to hear about some Lexus ownership experiences. Anyone willing to chime in on how well they hold up to wear/tear? Would certainly make for a better comparison.

sixto · #11 12-17-2003, 11:10 PM

Hatterasguy, there are much better deals than $820 per axle for shocks for a 93 Camry or any Camry. Dealer list is something like $130 per strut. $500 for labor per axle is outrageous.

Some random observations:

- Hondas hold their value much better than MBs do.

- the typical Japanese car will last longer on no maintenance than an MB.

- you can't get a Japanese car with good leather.

- the plastic in better Japanese cars fades more evenly than the plastic in MBs. Even the 140 can look like a color chart after a few years under the sun.

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL
83 300SD ... $950, see cars forum

BoostnBenz · #12 12-18-2003, 12:07 AM

My Eagle Talon is starting to get rattles, you may wonder if this is a chrysler why post it here right? Well my Talon is a DSM (Diamond [Mitsubishi] Star [Chrysler] Motors) it was a joint venture between those two companies. The motor is pure Mitsubishi, it can take a beating, can be modified to twice stock output. The chassis is primarily chrysler built I believe, the drivetrain has a noise or two. But in the last 5k miles I've noticed quite a few rattles popping up. I have to start fixing them before I go crazy, takes an enjoyable trip down the drain real quick! Anyway the car itself is like new after 12years and 103k miles, but between me taking panels off, the addition of a subwoofer, and cheap plastic paneling it is starting to rattle. Also this isn't a 300k mile car, if it makes 175k then you were lucky 150k is about right. While the drivetrain and motor can go further the oddest problems start forming and every little component starts failing.

Quote:

Personally I'd rather have a car that has some minor mechanical issues but can be maintained as new for decades.

I agree with you there.

Ashman · #13 12-18-2003, 12:30 AM

who said honda's hold their value? a 1997 civic with 70k on the odo is less than $5000...

a 1987 300e is worth around $5000 and its 10 years older.

Thats why I would pick up a used civic as a daily beater, the price for the mileage is low.

Alon

Holson Adi · #14 12-18-2003, 12:51 AM

I have a 1995 Toyota Celica GT...

problems...

the front quarter panels are a little damaged and the paint is coming off on both panels.

the rear wiper motor's dead.. $400

need two ABS speed sensors $800

the brakes groan after standing and squeal intermittently..

the hatch cargo cover rattles (no amount of padding could help)

the door panels rattle

the third gear syncro is a little worn, so I drive it a lil harder in 2nd (up to 3000rpm before shifting into 3rd)

clutch squeaks
steering column makes a funky noise every now and then..

thought honestly.. I think if the W124 lived through the same kind of life.... it would be in the same shape..

but other than that.. not bad for a Toyota w/ 105k mi.!

300maniac · #15 12-18-2003, 09:35 AM

I would like to point out that you need to compare apple to apples. Comparing 300E ($40K plus ten years ago) to Honda Accord ($12K 10 years ago) is not a valid comparison. I owned both cars and I can attest that Honda never got me stranded while "tank like" 300E got me stranded few times. Worst was when the car stalled on me on the bridge on Christmas evening with the entire family. Rattles or not, I think no body can match Japanese car's reliability track record to date. Things may change in the future as more and more Japanese cars are being manufactured outside its home country. If you look at Lexus 400 from 10 years ago, the car still feels solid as it was new.