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  #1  
Old 10-02-2004, 04:35 AM
ksing44's Avatar
1995 E320 SE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 658
OEM Camber Adjustment and Tire Wear?

I was wondering what MB or AMG did about more negative camber on the slightly lower sport suspensions. Did they just allow more negative camber as part of the alignment specifications, or did they use some kind of adjustable links or bushings?

I am asking, because I saw a woman driving a "REAL" AMG version of a W124. It looked slightly lower, just like my car. By accident, I even found out where the woman lived and one day I stopped and spoke briefly with the husband. He seems to be a DIY mechanic that buys quite a few used cars, but he doesn’t seem to know anything about his rare AMG W124. I may have to stop over at the guy’s house to peak under his car and see if it has some kind of OEM (MB or AMG) solution for negative camber.

My car is about 1 inch lower with Eibach springs, Bilstein HD shocks, 1-bump front pads, 3-bump rear pads, and KMAC bushings. My camber is adjusted to between –1.1 an –1.3 at all four wheels, this is within specifications for a "Sport" suspension, but I still get considerable wear on the inside of my tires at all four wheels. I can certainly live with more frequent tire purchases and I will be happy to replace my Michelin MXV4 tires with Bridgestone LSH tires, but I was really expecting the tires to last longer than 24,000 miles. That might be good tread life for a Max Performance tire, but I don’t think it is great for a Grand Touring tire. At the front, I had the alignment set to minimum toe-in, to avoid the original problem with wear on the outside edge of my tires. Next time, I am going to try more toe-in to compensate for the negative camber and then rotate my tires to strive to get just a little more mileage out of my tires. Does anyone have any other suggestions for maximizing tread life, considering the fact that I have slightly more negative camber? I like the slightly negative camber and I don’t think I can get much more adjustment even if I wanted it less negative.

Slightly Lower


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I just couldn't give up on my 1995 E320.

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Flickr slideshow of my 1995 E320
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24145497@N06/sets/72157616572140057/
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2004, 04:07 PM
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Slightly less toe-in might help BUT more toe-in will cause the tires to wear even quicker. 1.5-2mm on both front & rear.
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2004, 05:54 PM
ksing44's Avatar
1995 E320 SE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downingtown, PA
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Toe-in vs. Negative Camber

From my previous experience, I found that more toe-in increased the wear on the outside edge of the tires. Now my problem is wear on the inside edge of the tires, so I though I could manage the wear by balancing toe-in and camber. I am pretty sure that if I increase the toe-in, it will reduce the wear at the inside of the tire that is caused by the negative camber. It is true that the outside will wear more quickly, but then I will have more even tire wear and the tires should last as long as possible.
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I just couldn't give up on my 1995 E320.

I think it might be like always going back to that same bad relationship with an ex girlfriend.
You feel you love them too much, or you are just too stupid to know any better.



Flickr slideshow of my 1995 E320
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24145497@N06/sets/72157616572140057/
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2004, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksing44
I was wondering what MB or AMG did about more negative camber on the slightly lower sport suspensions. Did they just allow more negative camber as part of the alignment specifications, or did they use some kind of adjustable links or bushings?
They just allowed for more negative camber. There were no adjustable links or bushings. The true AMG cars - at least on the Hammer, anyway - did physical chassis mods (elongated bolt holes, re-welded stuff, etc) to allow more camber correction (to allow some positive camber adjustment, to get it from like -4.0 up to maybe -2.0 or -1.0?). Look at the AMG suspension documents listed here, note the change in alignment specs compared to the standard models (standard specs are in the service manual).

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/AMG_W124_conversion_Std.pdf

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/AMG_E60_conversion.pdf

The extra negative camber was mostly a problem for REAR tires. No way to compensate other than getting a turnbuckle-type camber arm, or the K-Mac lower bushing. Up front, there should be just enough adjustment to keep things tolerable. It also helps if you do NOT lower the car excessively. Sportline models, and the 500E, are right about 14.0 inches measured from the bottom of the fender opening to the center of the wheel. My car is pretty close to that, maybe a little lower (13.75 up front, 14.0 in the rear with a full tank of fuel.) If you go lower, you get fender clearance issues, tire rubbing issues, alignment issues, tire wear problems, and other annoyances. IMO, it's just NOT worth it for a street driven car. Raise it up to ~14.0 if needed with thicker spring pads.

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  #5  
Old 10-29-2004, 04:56 AM
ksing44's Avatar
1995 E320 SE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 658
Looking for more advice from gsxr

Hello gsxr,
Thank you for the information about the AMG suspensions. Also, thank you for all the wonderful information about swaybars. One of these days I am going to get those big OEM bars. I am planning to get the "Limo" front and E500 rear bars, or at least E500 bars all around.

How do feel about fitting 225/50/16 tires on my 16" x 7.5" ET37 wheels? I don’t remember, are you the one that told me you think 205/55/16 is a perfect size? I am still longing to try the 225 to get the fattest tires possible. I am just worried about rubbing behind the front wheels on the lower plastic cladding. I don’t want to damage my car.

Yesterday my tires failed the state Inspection, because I had belts showing through my tread after only 21,000 miles. They were only worn on the inside edge of the tires. I am ordering new tires and I am still undecided about trying the 225. I may just go with the tried and tested 205/55/16. I would love to try the 225, if wouldn’t cost $500.00 to do the experiment.

Whatever size tires I buy, I am hoping that increased toe-in might take some pressure off of the inside edge of the front tires. As I explained above and below, before the drop, I always ruined the outside edge of my front tires and I had my toe decreased to avoid that situation. I thought I could reverse that "correction" and maybe get to a place where I would have more even tire wear.

My car is only about 1-inch lower, all the way around. I have a very minimal drop, although I think it does make a big difference in the appearance of the car. My camber was adjusted to within the specifications for a Mercedes Benz, 92-95, 124.034, "Sport Suspension". The rear camber wasn’t specified, so mine was adjusted to the specifications for the front wheels. I asked for the minimum front toe so that the tires would not get worn-out on the outside edge, like they did with the OEM set-up.

Front
Camber: Min -1.33, Nominal -1.00, Max -0.83, Actual Left -1.2, Actual Right -1.1
Toe: Min 0.08, Nominal 0.17, Max 0.25, Actual left 0.09, Actual Right 0.08

Rear
Camber: Actual Left -1.2, Actual Right -1.3
Toe: Min 0.13, Nominal 0.21, Max 0.29, Actual Left 0.14, Actual Right 0.15

Just low enough for me
__________________
I just couldn't give up on my 1995 E320.

I think it might be like always going back to that same bad relationship with an ex girlfriend.
You feel you love them too much, or you are just too stupid to know any better.



Flickr slideshow of my 1995 E320
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24145497@N06/sets/72157616572140057/

Last edited by ksing44; 10-30-2004 at 10:19 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2004, 10:19 AM
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Hmmm, that IS a little strange. My front tires wear more or less evenly on the edges, it's the rears that seem to wear out the inside edge faster. Your alignment specs seem to be OK, and with only a 1-inch drop (about same as mine), you should NOT have problems like this.

About the tire size, you're pushing clearance limits with that offset and a 225 tire. I'd go with a 215/55/16 tire, which the W210 used on a 16x7.5 wheel. A 225/50 should work with fender lip rolling and the spacer kit up front though.

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  #7  
Old 10-29-2004, 10:42 AM
ksing44's Avatar
1995 E320 SE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 658
I truly think toe-in may help

Hey gsxr, thanks for chiming in. You provided plenty of good information in the past, so it is very reassuring to get your advice when I have an issue.

My friend mounted 215/55/16 tires on his 16” x 7.5” ET35 wheels on his coupe and they rubbed the plastic cladding. It seems that slightly taller tires are just as much of a problem as slightly wider tires. From what I have read, the 215/45/17 is OK on a 17” rim, but the 215 doesn’t workout for the 16-inch rims, unless you have a higher offset.

I may order my tires today and I will probably just go for the 205/55/16. They are OK. I was just looking forward to having really fat tires bulging under my fenders.

I really think increasing the toe-in will help my current situation in the front. Then I can just rotate the tires from front to back to balance everything out.
__________________
I just couldn't give up on my 1995 E320.

I think it might be like always going back to that same bad relationship with an ex girlfriend.
You feel you love them too much, or you are just too stupid to know any better.



Flickr slideshow of my 1995 E320
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24145497@N06/sets/72157616572140057/
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2004, 09:19 PM
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Location: Norfolk VA
Posts: 142
Your alignment specs look good, but you need to realize that the negative camber will normally wear the inside more.

There are only two sensible solutions given your informantion:

1. Set the alignment with less negative camber.

or

2. Dammit, corner faster!! That will even up the wear with those negative camber settings!!

Keep the toe within the normal specs. Trying to compensate outside of that range will only wear the tires faster.
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2004, 01:43 AM
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Ksing, I have 225/50x16 on 8x16 ET34 wheels on my Sportline coupe. No rubbing what-so-ever. Tire wear is very even also.

Front
-0.97 L R -1.13 Camber
00.16 L R 00.15 Toe

Rear
-1.71 L R -1.88 Camber
00.25 L R 00.20 Toe
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  #10  
Old 10-30-2004, 10:09 AM
ksing44's Avatar
1995 E320 SE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 658
Tempted

Hello dakota,

You are tempting me with your success using the 225/50/16. I just might give it a try, although I have to admit that I am still leaning toward the safer bet of 205/55/16. I would love the fatter tires, but I am afraid of damaging the exterior of the car. I could live with an occasional rub inside the fenders, but I don’t want to damage that lower plastic cladding. It could turn into an expensive experiment, if I get rubbing with the 225/50/16. I am still wrestling with the decision. I am going to make the purchase on Monday.

Your toe-in setting is the same as my original set-up before I lowered my car. With that amount of toe-in, I had issues with wear on the outer edge of my tires. As I tried to explain above, I went to minimum toe-in when I lowered the car to try to eliminate that problem on the outer edge of tires. What I didn’t know at that time, was that the increased negative camber was going to significantly increase the wear on the inside edge of the tires. I truly believe that the proper combination of toe-in and negative camber can solve my problems. I can’t find the source of the information anymore, but I read that adjusting toe-in was definitely a way to counter the effects of negative camber.

You are lucky to have the Sportline, although my Eibach and Bilstein HD set-up is pretty sweet. I still don’t have bigger swaybars, however, and I am wondering if increased body-roll would increase the likelihood of fender rubbing. To me, it seems that decreased body-roll should reduce the chance of fender rubbing. In the same way, I was hoping that my slightly stiffer suspension would help me avoid the problems experienced by guys with an OEM set-up. Even though my car is a little lower, there is much less movement compared to the OEM set-up. Maybe you have been OK, because you have the slightly stiffer Sportline suspension with stiffer springs, shocks, swaybars, and bushings.

I would like the tires to be even closer to the fender lip, for a more aggressive look.



__________________
I just couldn't give up on my 1995 E320.

I think it might be like always going back to that same bad relationship with an ex girlfriend.
You feel you love them too much, or you are just too stupid to know any better.



Flickr slideshow of my 1995 E320
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24145497@N06/sets/72157616572140057/
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