Off topic, to address the Rolex issue

Rolexes are not quartz watches, they are mechanical watches.
No matter how much craftsmanship goes into a mechanical watch, they can never be as accurate as a quartz.
Swiss watches like that are hand assembled by expert craftmanship and then tested in the official Swiss institute for accuracy and issued a chronometer certificate which means that it has met the stringent tests of accuracy that last almost three weeks.
Rolexes are wind-up watches with a weighted self-winding mechanism that winds the watch everytime its position changes. They are also 28,800 beats per hour or even 33,600 beats per hour.

On topic,
I would take a bimmer over a MB anyday. In my mind, there is simply no comparison. And, being a young person, i am not drawn to BMW because of their cheap interior materials. I am drawn to it because of the DOHC head with double VANOS, the exterior looks, the build quality, the stick shift in every sedan except the 7, and the fact that they are true driver's cars.

Rats are invading Mercedes-Benz!
Foreign rats who are selling Mercedes-Benz principles short.
These rats must be exposed, identified and destroyed!!!!!

Mike McKinney

__________________
1989 300CE - 269,000 km
1994 SL600 - 59,000 km

Is this quality issue a "new" issue with MB?
I spoke with a buddy of mine on the phone yesterday, he has a late 80's (or early 90's) 300E. He bought it used with fairly low miles a long time ago, and has put about 80,000 miles on it.
I asked him how reliable its been.
He said its been great.
I then asked him if he had the head gasket problem that I read so much about.
"Oh, yeah, the head gasket broke. $2500."
I then asked how the AC system is.
"Oh, yeah, it had to be replaced." Several more thousand.
Once I got his memory refreshed, and got him started, he couldn't stop! As it turns out, it seems just about everything on his car has been replaced, at fairly tremendous costs.
He is also one of the unfortunate ones to have bought an early production ML. He has had so many problems with it, it just sits in his garage. It works fine, and he doesn't want to change that status by, umm, driving it! Its not clear to me why he doesn't just sell it, if he refuses to drive it, but that's his thing.
He then said he'd be looking for a new car in the next year or so.
"What kind"?
Answer: "A Mercedes!"
The Star still is a very powerful marketing tool.

Brian, I think the problems discussed with your friend as common when wear and tear sets in. If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm way off, the grouse here is of quality when the MB's keys are handed to the new owner.

Its common for cheaper cars to have these teething problems solved within the first 1,000 km, i.e. door can't close properly, rattling noise, poor built, etc, etc .. and this is being reflected in the MB too = so much so the durability of what is meant to last a long time has turned short terms. Look at the plastic ware for instance - it snaps too easily.

Off topic - If the Rolex is so unreliable, why does it cost a Japanese car to wear it??

__________________
... Kerry

126 tailed by a 203, 129 leading the pack.

Well then, why are most of us are driving
a Mecedes Benz? Status symbol? I think if we will
look closer,I mean really look very close,
B.M.W.&Lexus has a lot of inferfection too.

Clauser1

you're not dead on target. It's a combination of all the issues you've mentioned.And yes, I think the fact that MB is looking for conquest (read: Younger) buyers is a factor. They are betting on the fact that the younger customer has never owned a Benz, and they won't notice that the quality is not as high as in years past. Yes, MB quality is not what it once was. Most manufacturers are in a similar fix. I mentioned this somewhere else, but it bears mentioning again. As I was telling our MB rep a few months ago about the numerous mini-problems I had with my 2001 CLK, he just nodded knowingly and said, "yep, it's not about making Mercedes anymore, it's just about making money." This is a sad reality. What I don't understand is the thought from DBAG and MBUSA that people are SO price sensitive that they would not pay 2-4% more money for a car with better raw materials. That is where the problem really lies, not in the build quality. It is all about weight and cost savings, and that is where these cheap plastics, leathers, paint and glass come in. No need to worry about any haughty BMW owners either--they're up against the same thing. It's well nigh impossible to get an appointment at a BMW service facility now due to so many niggling quality problems. They have done a good job of disguising cheap materials, but it's already coming back to haunt them. Have you seen a windshield in a new e39 or e46? Pathetic! And the best built car they have--the e38 7--is on the way out. Just wait till you see how cheap those materials are. I'm with you guys, I want to own a new or nearly new Benz, but it's getting tougher to rationalize. And no, I don't think MBUSA or D/C cares. And to the gentleman who plans to keep his new c240 for 15 years--i wish you could, but that is not reality. Unlike an old 124 or 126, the raw materials in this car just are not in there to last or to coninute repairing or refurbing. And what will we do when the car won't meet smog standards 10-15 years from now--pay thousands to fix it, or take the "easy" route out and buy/lease/rent another one? What do you think the manufacturer wants you to do? I'm like you guys, just older--and unfortunately I can remember being awed by the quality of my first Benz 24 years ago. Now I'm awed by the lack of it. Sorry this is so long--just hacks me off. I'm through now.

Allen
25 years of MB
nearly 100 cars
Current 2001 CLK, 92 500E, 92 300TE, 85 300TD

Elau makes a good point. The other makes (BMW, Lexus) are getting more expensive. If you take a look back in history when Lexus first introduced the LS400 it was aimed directly at the 300 class MB (n.k.a. E-class). At the time the 300E was more expensive and didn't offer a V-8. The LS 400 was larger, faster, and had more gizmos. What a lot of people failed to notice was that as time crept by the LS 400 price crept up. In 1996 MB finally countered with the current E-class and Lexus couldn't compete. Now, the NEW LS 430 is so expensive it can no longer compete against the class in which it was born, they have set their sights on the S-class which, as far as I'm concerned they will fall short. To me it looks like Toyota bought the W140 tooling dies from MB to produce the "new" LS 430. I bet Lexus can't wait until the next MB chassis goes out of production.

__________________
Scott Diener
89 300E
93 300E
92 Volvo 740 Wagon aka "Mutt mover"

I did a little number research some time back - the entire thread is at Traded in my Mercedes for Lexus....

the summary: When Lexus LS400 was introduced in 1990 at $36,600 (all numbers from IntelliChoice), it was a new feature rich model being sold at a near loss against a End-of-lifespan quality rich SEL420 ($62500). By 1999, the equivalent MB evolved to a feature rich (lower quality???) S430 at 18% more cost ($73900) than the 1990 model, while the Lexus had increased in cost ( 47%!!! ) to $53,800. In comparing it to the E class, the 1990 300E was $46,000, the 1999 430E was $51300, for an increase of 11% ( or $46200 for the '99 E320, if you don't insist on comparing the Lexus to the v8 E class, for an increase of 0.4% ). (This increase despite 0% interest rates from Japanese banks to Japanese manufacturers for expansion, materials purchase, etc, while much higher interest rates applied to German manufacturers from German banks! On a level playing field, much more than a 47% increase would have been likely!)

[Edited by JCE on 04-13-2001 at 04:13 PM]

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

Well said luv. I must say that I wear a silver-coloured watch to match a silver-coloured ring and a blue-coloured watch to match a blue-coloured blouse... but it's stopped now so I make do. Image conscious-perhaps, brand conscious-not really- but colour coordination has to be right.
A Swanee thing i suppose.


[Edited by Swanee on 04-16-2001 at 12:55 AM]

The Rolex might have been fake. You can pick from bucketloads in Hong Kong. In fact, every brand that's ever been produced has been replicated in Hong Kong. This would be a good solution for Swanee's color coordination woes

The ML320 is the first Mercedes I have myself purchased. I'm not satisfied with the build quality and I treat it like a truck. I grew up in Benzes, so I know what they used to be. The feeling just isn't there anymore with the newer models, just the useless becker and horrible A/C.

Kuan

Kuan is probably right.The Rolex is fake.It came from
the Thieves Market down Kowloon Rd.
Clauser1

Rolex's strength lies in its durability and low maintenance. If you want the most accurate watch, get one of those that will synchronize with the atomic clock.

Besides, not all Rolexes cost US$5000.

I have always liked to defend the newer MB cars against its rivals and will continue here.

While we like to complain about the interior finishing of our S-class or E-class not up to our liking, I read about a whole bunch of M5 owners all signing off to send a letter to BMW demanding something done about their prematurely worn clutches. And have you guys heard about the Audi 2.7 engine's turbo overheating? What about the class action lawsuit against Audi for fuel gauge problems or the Lexus GS series' tricky wheel alignment?

I hate to say this but I think many of us are way too obsessed with cosmetics judging the book by the cover. Sure, the 5 series may have nicer plastic on its dash but does anyone realize it doesn't even have true automatic climate control (but with a manual A/C) and it has much less rear leg room than the E? Despite all the hype about the LS430, I was shocked by its poor brakes even though they have been supposedly, completely redesigned.

Many of us here don't know enough about other brands' quality problems and feel that grass is always greener next door; trust me, I have visited many BMW & Audi message boards, they all have their own problems. There are just as many unhappy BMW, Audi, Lexus and MB owners out there.

Picking a car is a very personal thing, whether you like or dislike a brand or a model doesn't make or kill that brand. I must admit I have zero loyalty in car brand names. At the moment, the MB I drive wins my vote because of its safety, resale value and performance. However, if BMW offers a better car for me at my next car purchase, I will gladly dump MB without losing sleep.. Hey this is only a car, not a sports team, a rock band, a girlfriend, a political party or a religion which you have to defend often rather blindly.

What a wonderfully impassioned series of postings! Rolex watches being sometimes inaccurate and Mercedes build quality becoming inadequate. Personally, I think MB still builds a darn fine automobile. And probably the best or near it, in any given class. If they screw up a stitch, the warranty will pay to fix it. Sure there are some short comings, but who here is willing to pay an additional, I dunno, guess $10K, $20K, $30K or more for the same car with nicer finish? Any takers???? Neither Mercedes nor any other vehicle manufacturer thinks so, either. That’s why they are built to the price point(s) they are.

I am entirely happy with my y2k ML. I drove it a little over 400 miles yesterday and it was enjoyable the entire time. I plan on driving this ML until it has at least a 100K miles on the odometer. The only things that will stop me would be illness on my part, or the cost of fuel going so high as to be prohibitive. Or a significant accident. I bought an extended warranty, as warranties are always comparatively cheap and generally hugely valuable. I am positive the ML will have problems along the way. In over 28 years of driving, I’ve found it is silly to think that any vehicle will be without problems. That warranty on the ML will stretch to 10 years or 100K miles. Warranties aside, I am willing to tolerate occasional problems in the name of driving a Mercedes. The opportunity cost is well worth it. In addition, I've found that the service offered by at least the MB dealer I frequent to be excellent. The service you receive is or ought to be part of the value of the vehicle.

I read the article referenced at the top of this thread and think it is both silly and purposefully inflammatory. IMO one of the great wisdoms in life is to know when you have or are near having the finest of anything, and accept that there is always room for improvement. If you don’t think so, try to find any, any durable product that is at a state of perceived perfection, and which will stay that way through years of regular use....

…Tracy

Maybe we should petition M-B for improvments in quality. I really do hope the next E-Class is going to have imrpoved quality. One of the most important things to me in a car is build quality.

__________________
"Damn the torpedos, four bells full speed ahead"
-Admiral Farragut




-1987 300E Smoke Silver
-1997 S320 Black on Black
-Soon To be E55 AMG
-27 foot Grady White Offshore Sportfish.