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  #1  
Old 04-10-2001, 09:12 PM
cheyun
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http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm
Anyone had similar problems ?

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  #2  
Old 04-10-2001, 09:49 PM
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Just as the competition has stepped up. Lexus, Bimmer, ETc are making better cars, it appears that MBZ has stepped down in quality. What can happen next, perhapes Mercedes will slump in sales? I'm worried, because all other brands have gotten better and Benz has gotten worse. I hope those guys in Stuttgart read that article. Think they did? Do you think that MBZ will fail to continue their tradition.
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  #3  
Old 04-10-2001, 10:03 PM
cheyun
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Yes, I think. the new S-class especially. I was suprised.
I think the main reasons why people choose Mercedes was because of their build quality. Rcent Mercedes had lost that advantage.
Others had really stepped up in all aspects. Others like Lexus and BMW are cheaper too. Again why spend more for something that are worst ?
I think MB has lost a lot of sales already. Most of Mercedes's market focus on elder ( late 30's and on ) people. Those people looks mainly at build quality and driving comfort.
Youngster will take Bimmers or audi any day, MB are just not build like a driver's car compare to BMW.
330 or C320.
I will take 330 any day. Faster, drives better, tons of aftermarket goods. "Better quality"
E320 or 530.
I will also take 330.
Cheaper, "Better qualtiy" faster, drivers better. same level of luxary, same safty features.
M class or X
of couse the X. the new 4.6 V8 is faster then the ML 55.
M class are well known for "poorly build". Even the local service guy told me no to consider any M class besides the 55 AMG.
New C32 has to be powered by a supercharger , why a supercharger ? cost is the main reason, you know why GM produces the most Supercharged models. Perhaps, supercharger is like a aftermarketing stuff. No manual ?
At least a manual based type tranmission like ferrari or BMW.
M3 is pure natural engine, drives and goes anywhere you want it to. That is why they have a no waiting list.
I don't understand why MB wants to jeopardise their image that others took a century to build. When you see the 3 point star, everyone in the world expects that it is made out of the best material available with highest possible craftmanships.
They no not any cheaper then others, and they are build worst, I can't understand why.
If I were the CEO of DC. I will fire the cheif designer after reading this article. In the automobile world image is almost everything.



[Edited by cheyun on 04-10-2001 at 10:28 PM]
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  #4  
Old 04-10-2001, 11:10 PM
elau's Avatar
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No doubt MB quality has gone down hill in recent years and cheap material have found their way into our beloved 3-star mobile. But we should all remember the decisions made to go with cheaper material may all be market driven (and some cost savings as well). I do not think MB can continue to use the best material in all their cars and still be affordable to compete in the fearsome dog eat dog auto industry. As far as using plastic parts for interior, it could very well be MB is trying to stay with the "in" look and to reduce body weight (almost any MB is over 3,000 lbs)and thus better fuel consumption. It is also a way to catch some younger buyers. How many thirty something will care to have maple in their dash and shift gate? I would think they would prefer carbon fiber (although it is also going out of style)or brush aluminum. MB has always viewed as grandpap mobile, and the cheaper look could very well be their way of saying "Hey look! We built cars for young people too". Lets not forget MB is notoriously famous for their engineering, or over engineering their cars. It is true that BMW, Audi, Lexus and the lot are improving their built quality (they were poor to begin with) by putting in as much expensive parts in their cars. But how long before their cars become so expensive to produce and can no longer compete? Would they not have to revert back to using cheap parts and cut corners in engineering just to stay alive as well?
Maybe MB quality has slipped, but consider other car manufacturers are now catching up with the milestone that was set by MB years ago still has alot to say about the 3-star. Consider this, would you rather be in a Lexus or Audi when a Dodge Ram truck runs into you?

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  #5  
Old 04-10-2001, 11:21 PM
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Oh, one more thought. Would that be MB marketing hype? If you buy a regular bone stock MB vehicle, you get some inferior material. Whereas, if you want premium like the good ole days then go with their tuning arm AMG. That will guarantee everything will be up to your standard. Just like the Toyoto/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity mentality.

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  #6  
Old 04-11-2001, 04:07 PM
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I highly doubt that M-B is setting a cheaper build quality image to gain younger buyers. What I do think that is happening (and this is scary)is that M-B is trying to cut costs, to gain as large a profits as possible. I took a long close look at a friends 2000 S430 and interior quality is not as nice as my W140. The wood stripping is starting to peel off the dash, plastic supports uder the seat have already cracked, the stiching on the leather seats is starting to pull apart. A mental Oh Sh$t went through my head as I noticed all these "impruities". ?Its sad to say but the good old days are gone, and MBZ is just another car. The name and rep that took 115 years to build is fading as we speak....its a sad thing, if Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler were around today, they would be disgusted by the "only for profits first" mentality. Hopefully Benz will solve some of thier probs, and return to the good old days. Maybe the E-Class will be a different automobile.
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  #7  
Old 04-11-2001, 04:29 PM
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I agree. I don't know if i'm off topic here but look at the AMG cars.

The C36 i figure is AMG at it's purist. The block has been rebuilt from oil pan up. Hell even the oil pan is different.

The C43 here basically only has cams done and very minor tweaking.

I've always said, and still continue to say that the C43is not a "real" AMG.

Now we see a supercharger powering all the new AMG cars. I'm all for more power but coming from Mercedes, a turbo or supercharger is just an easy way out to make the extra buck.
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  #8  
Old 04-11-2001, 05:20 PM
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If they screw the next E-Class up the way they are screwing up the rest of the line up in terms of quality it won't be pretty. The next generation E-Class is being highly anticipated in the automotive circles and amongst MB purist. Fingers crossed!
So far blinding people with technology seems to be working. I don't expect anything to change guys. This relatively new MB philosophy may be here to stay, we've talked about this before. Sales of MB cars are peaking as we speak so it must be working. But I can't describe the disgust I feel jumping into a Passat and then getting into a late model MB sedan. A damn Passat for crying out loud!!!! When the hell did VW/Audi start winning interior fit & finish awards over MB?
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  #9  
Old 04-11-2001, 05:28 PM
cheyun
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I agree 100% with Rocky
Actually, C32 will also be a what I call "fake" AMG car.
AMG should be motor turning not force induction. Anyone could add a supercharger. Lorinser also disappoints me too. they are now turing chryslers.

CaptAlex300e
I don't think the "cheaper" build quality is a way to gaion youger buyers, more like gain profit.
From what I heard the current E-class will be the last car that build based on the good old days concept.
E-class still uses good quality material and excellent craftmanship.

elau:
First of all, I don't wish to be hit by a dodge ram "giant" truck. Those car aims directly at the body of the car not the bumper. I could tell you that Lexus and Audi both are very well build cars. From design to actual building are nothing less then a current mercedes. Before, like 10 years ago I would rather be in a benz then any of those cars.
However, those cars are now really up or beyond the mercedes level.

This is another article that I got off the net.

DaimlerChrysler’s chairman Jurgen Schrempp is facing great pressure. Many shareholders requested him to resign. However, less than 2 years ago he was praised by others for taking up Chrysler and pushed Daimler-Benz (now DaimlerChrysler) to be one of the 5 largest car makers in the world. It was the largest merger in commercial history.
What made the changes happened? Mostly because of the sales slump of Chrysler - the new Voyager and Grand Cherokee were not selling well despite of high cost. To be honest, the influence of the merger is unlikely to be effective so early, but no one cares the real reason. They just accused Schrempp’s Hitler-style leadership. He is the King. He replaced all the top managers in Chrysler by sacking them or making some retire early, including the design head Tom Gale. He admitted the so-called "Merge of Equal" was actually a takeover. He sent German to manage the American company, replacing highly efficient decision making and creativity with committees. Chrysler is no longer Chrysler.

The sales slump might not be his responsibility, but obviously Schrempp has to take that, because he has so many enemies, including millions of American car enthusiasts.

We also question the decision to take over Mitsubishi. Schrempp once said he didn’t want to take over Nissan because of its unseen debt. Instead, he chose the smaller Mitsubishi. Now Renault’s Carlos Ghosn has succeeded to reduce debt, cost and turn the company to black. In contrast, Mitsubishi’s problem has been found to be even more deep-rooted than Nissan, including hiding their car’s problems when eventually led to recall of over 1 million cars and punishing fine. The link with Mitsubishi group means the car maker is even less willing to reform than Nissan.

Why did Schrempp chose Chrysler and Mitsubishi ? no one knows. From cost-sharing point of view it is pointless, because Mercedes cannot share any platform with its cheaper subsidiaries. Smart can, but it’s just a small business. Sharing between Chrysler and Mitsubishi is just under discussion now, obviously it was not in the plan before the crisis began. One day this man will go because of his poor management.

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  #10  
Old 04-11-2001, 05:42 PM
Brian K
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That story seems a little overblown to me, but I think it does have some good points.
I think the build quality on my new C is quite good, I don't notice any misaligned seams, bad stitching, etc. like they point out in the article. And, the car seems as tight as a drum.
But, it certainly doesn't have the "over-engineered" feel of my Porsche 911, or even the feel of my '86 BMW. Both of those cars, despite their advanced age, have a "solid" feeling that the new MBs do seem to lack.
There are also some materials and details in the C that do seem a little "cheap", both in the interior and under the hood. The cupholder comes to mind. And the headliner, too.
That being said, I paid around $32K for the car, brand new. Not cheap, but not earthshattering expensive, either. Overall, it meets my expectations so far for a car of its price. For example, I did not feel that the E46 3 series(current body style) is superior in build quality or materials than the current C. Nor was the Audi A4, in my opinion, or any other of the MB competitors. (although they certainly have closed the gap).
Now, I DO wonder about the S, and the new E. One of my big surprises was at how similar in quality, materials and looks the new mighthy S and my lowly C are. While the C seems to use materials commensurate with its price, the S does not strike me as a $90,000 car.
We plan to keep our C for 15+ years, so it will be interesting. I take very good care of all my cars (which are now, with the exception of the C all over 15 years old and function basically "as new"), and will be very disappointed if the C does not hold up well over that amount of time. Only time will tell.
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  #11  
Old 04-11-2001, 05:58 PM
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I think what really happend is that the price difference between a BMW and Benz was a problem at first. Benz wore more expensive becuase of those little details they paid attention to. Then when MB didn't change much of their line (i.e. 201, 124) and BMW revamped, MB followed with more competitve models, that in turn lost those little MB details MB was known for. Know MB has the leg in the techno area in the S-class, but the reason the BMW has the advantage is because it build better now.

I think a big preview of this was MB's plant in the US. It had problems from day one. Even though BMW has a plant here, not many complains, I think the merger rushed alot of detials MB should have paid attention to.

330 or C320 - 330
530 or E320 - 530
740 or S430 - 740

Its BMW all the way. MB use to be real close to BMW in the handle/performance/feel area and blew BMW away in the build. Now MB has nothing to claim.

I wrote an email to MBUSA, who knows, but I can say one thing.

My ML has a mitsurbishi interior, with mopar build, and an MB engine. And given that all those companies have relationships with each other, its put plain in Daimler-Chrysler Language.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2001, 11:50 PM
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Its sad, you guys think that MBZ will change? Maybe if enough people complain then their practices will change. A freind of mine (who works for VW in Germany) told me that the new E-Class coming out will be a great car. Build quality will go into that Benz as a important factor, that was in recent years forgotten. Please MBZ change! Its hard and sad to admit, but Lexus, BMW, and even Audi have the upper hand over you.
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2001, 12:00 AM
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The only constance in life nowadays is change. Look at the announcements that Roll Royce will be built with parts of BMW, and the new Bentley will be powered by VW engine.

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  #14  
Old 04-12-2001, 12:39 AM
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Whenever this discussion props up over business lunches where we ponder about the makes of cars and why its preferred over the other, MB always has a spot in it.

But when we talk in terms of pricing, the MB outdo every other car by at least 50%. Take the C200 for example, the cost: RM270,000. The BMW318 goes for RM210,000, and the A4 RM150,000.

The C-class fetches a command on price. But when the conversation drifts to quality, everyone agrees that the MB does not stand above. We pay more for the prestige of owning a MB - with similar problems.

In fact, the only reason why businessmen pay so much for a MB is for tx purposes as Malaysian tax law allows for straight depreciation of 20% opver 5 years for company vehicles. At the end of which, the bookbalue is RM1 while the market value is still about 30% off the selling price. Good bargain. The other untold side of why a MB is because if one were to look at a supplier driving a MB, the though would be that this bloke is stable and not a run-by-night character. This was the reason why my dad bought his MB over a Volvo.

Sad aint it?

But when we touch on quality, it is true that over the years, industry quality has declined with cheaper materials used, and sometimes the parts in issue are no longer durable.

I have been affected by inferior parts. I have changed twice for most of the parts I replaced on the 300SE. Original parts mind you. You name it, I've records of parts changed twice - at no charge. But what is the point of not charging me a set of faulty parts when I have to face the frustrations of having to book another spot in the workshop MB cars are meant to be enjoyed on the road, not the workshop.

From memory, I have had 2 tie-rods, ball joints, pistons n valve, timing chains ... all replaced within a span of 1 year. There were other small ones too which I cannot remember off hand.

I told the service centre that this cannot go on like this anymore, because if it does, my mind is set on a Volvo S70 or 850.

The newer MB models are not problem-free either.

My client drove his new E280 out and within a week, had to sent it back to the workshop to replace the steering shaft. He was full of complains.

My Godfather's S280 is coming out now, but the dealer called him over to inspect the car before agreeing to take it. I don't know whether he was completely satisfied though he hasn't said a word whether he is accepting this unit still sitting in the showroom. Apparently, there were some production problems which had to be sorted out ... If it wasn't for the production problem, he would have had his new car in February 2001.

Come to think of it, if the quality of MB declines at this rate, the Japanese or the Koreans might as well take it over.

The bottomline would be, we don't have to pay too much for too little.

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  #15  
Old 04-12-2001, 12:47 AM
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I left out another interesting bit of one business lunch we had when the MB conversation was raised.

This chap had a Rolex, and we were talking about Rolexes too, and everyone had their Rolex proudly displayed. I don't have one as I find it very uncomfortable to wear something like USD5,000 on my wrist just so I could tell the time.

Anyway, this chappie who had a USD10,000 Rolex kept complaining about how he had to adjust the time at every month coz its running slow. Despite the un-reliability of the watch, he would continue to wear the Rolex as a symbol of "being able to afford some little piece of luxury". Mind you, I think its simple showing off. If it was my watch, I'd stuff it and get another decent and modest watch.

For many Asians, and I confidently speak on their behalf who are too busy showing off at business lunches, despite the decline in a quality of a MB, they would still continue q-ing for a piece of luxury just so they can afford to show it off.

The people closest to me are no exception and I know I can say this as loud as possible and they won't hear it. Even if they did hear it, I don't care.

Its my opinion and how I think that matters.

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