Racing...

New subject.

What do you do to lower the engine bay temps in a turbo install?

Consider almost all of the USA has summer ambient temps that tend to reach 35C along with high humidity.

Do you use heat extractor vents in the hood?
Asking because I'm about to install 280Z extractors which would mimic the hood mods that Willi Mosselman did on the TT Silver Arrow 300CE/300SL in 1991.





Concerned about residual heat breaking down insulation and rubber parts !!

Thanks

Ed A.

I never sad that I will torture my stock engine with 10K rpm next season.
I wanted to see what happed if I run without revlimit and I made one try and reach 10120 and it sounds just amazing but it will never last for longer if I put 10k as arevlimit BUT I will stil rum with 8000rpm revlimit even If i lost Nm at 6000rpm and Hp at 6500hp. Becaurse if I run up to 8000rpm and when I change the gear I get higher rpm and higher boost at the next gear and I got this experince by doing that at the streetrace by winning time. I have rev limit at 8000rpm even on my other winter car (190 2,6) I driving daily for 2 years now and torture this car 8000rrm all the time without any problem.

But when I finished with my M103 stock expiriment I have a other engine I am builing at the side with CP pistons and pauter rods and other stuff what I am planing revlimit at 9000rpm and 1000hp++

Then I love doing that even if I need to damage many parts on my way to my target. So you can not just say that all this staff I am doing is unnessery and its good enough with 0,5bar and K-jet. Becaurse I stil think that K-jet should be drown in the toalet and 0,5 bar feels like a tired turtle.

Even if I am not finished with my expiriment yet I can allready say that you can run 500hp on stock m103 and have reliable engine for very long time. Most becaurse of SA and of caurse the mercedes m103 quality

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Hi Ed,
There are sequential injection systems out there that can individually tune cylinders on the fly with WBO2 sensors on each port but this would definitely be extreme for street application. You can however install bungs on each header during tuning to get an idea of what each cylinder is getting. What is commonly done in the racing industry is to have digital EGT probes on each port along with one or two WBO2 sensors. But even this is a little extreme for street.

Even if you are using two WBO2’s your still getting a reading from 3 cylinders not one. Check out this article I found on the net: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/gm-tech/manifold-injection.pdf There are many other documents I have read that indicate the same results. Now, these numbers are for a GM engine and manifold. Not an M103. However the situation is still the same. The M103 manifold is a DRY manifold. It was not engineered to run WET. Your engine may run just fine as it’s setup but there will still be a larger percent if imbalance than there would be if you were running 6 matched injectors at the end of each runner, sequential or not. I’m not saying that your setup is unreliable, dangerous or faulty; it’s just that it could be better which would up your performance. Engines like balance. They want matched runners, matched mixture, matched displacement, matched reciprocating weight, matched headers. Performing all of this is part of the basis of engine tuning. By the way, I’m just making a point. You don’t have to go with EFI if you don’t want to. But I figure I’d give you an example of the differences and benefits.
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

Ed.
So far...nothing.
Haven´t done a thing for evacuating underhood air.
On the other hand,the top speeds in this country is all about bursts.
Very very seldome do we maintain high speed for any period of time.(Approx 80mph is the legal limit)

Have given it some though for the next setup tho,cause simply put ...he who labours got to sweat.
Idea is for a NACA duct approx 2/3s down the lenght of the hood.Do not go any closer to the windshield as there will be tubulence,and you might very well make the duct completely inactive.
Mainly to have somewhere for the hot gasses AROUND the turbo to escape.
Porsche used this setup with great success on the 931(924 turbo),and IMO the setups we fool around with are similar from an estethics point of view.

Further,there´s "help" to be found at the undercarriage if you ask me.
The 16V even sports a NACA in the undertray OEM for the catalyst vehicles,and i logicaly presume this could be improved/built upon.

Massive scoops on cars like this is out IMO...just isn´t done on a merc,but that´s just me.

Also have in mind that a NACA-when of correct dimensions-is WAY more effective than any louvers in the hood.

Within the engine cmpt tho,i mainly move the oilcooler and lay it flat as well as move it backwards-toward the motor.
Reasons for this is plentifold,but main one being lack of space within the radiator support-i to keep the OEM looks of the car i´m set to keep body mods to a minimum.(Which can´t be said for my current rust bucket)

Overflow tank i something i place next to the battery,and hoses leading to and from...i simply make a new hardline with outlets needed that goes for the heater element.Bracket and tank i use the Volvo "submarine" off the 740 series with a 125kPa lid.

Thing is,that mainly due to underhood temp i simply move the intire manage on the pass side inner fender,so in practice this area becomes clean from accessories-which is a void i use for the turbo hedder and wastegate.
Of course this also leaves us with a rather long arm of momentum for the whole thing to move around,and this in turn puts bigger loads on the engine mounts/cushions.
Therefore i use the "rally" ones for..again Volvos.
Solid mount....nope..not with a 4 banger.
With a V8...i´ve run it more times than i care to remember,and will continue doing so,but for an inline 4 banger...forget it.
Simply put the inherent balance of a 4 banger just isn´t there,leaving you with your eyes standing out of your head on sticks if you would even try to.
The 6 is better from this respect,but not as good as the V8 setup.

Another angle of attack when it comes to underhood heat is that of heatshields.
I use them,and form them from common aluminium sheet metal.
Turn weldbungs that i put windings of choice in and weld these to strategic point,then turn some oversize "washers" out of aluminium too,and bolt the whole thing together.
Point being that the high frequenzy vibrations always present with any running motor will rip bolts right through thin sheet metal aluminium if you don´t leave the thing with some similar material "reinforcements" to work with-hence the approx 1/4" thick "washers" at every bolt.
This is for shields bolted TO the motor tho,and they indeed work like a charm.
Another tip if you´re concerned with this is to visit your local weld house.
They will be able to supply you with welding shields out of weaved material that´s pliable,and efficient enough for you to actualy glue it in place.

Racing

Thanks

Have been discussing the heat problem primarily with owners of 500E's
There was one in Japan who has used wide louvers in the front of the hood, for intake cooling, but location would not allow extraction.

If I use the 280Z extractors they will be located as Mosselman did on the Silver Arrows.

Not worried as much about heat under driving conditions, more at idle and after shut down.

One 500E owner was thinking about exhausting via a fan.
I will be trying this probably next week.
Will be using an inline blower of the type that NASCAR uses to cool brakes.
It's tubular, about 7" long, with a 4" intake and a 3" discharge and moves 270CFM.

I'll initially use an inline thermal disc thermostat to turn on around 150F and off at 135F.
I need first to read spot temps with an infrared thermometer.

Considering locating the blower on the rear bulkhead at the centerline of the engine.
Will use 3" duct to the lower chassis on the intake side of the engine.
This should create a negative pressure to draw the rising heat from the turbo heat shields.

Have you considered this method ?

Thanks

Ed

Adam

Thanks your technical input.
I can't question any points you make and am in full agreement.

My "problem" ( not really !! ) is that I'm trying to recreate with as few visible changes a twin turbo W124 that was typical of what the "tuners" of the period created.

To me it gives a bit more "provenance" and will maintain the value of the vehicle.

I bought my coupe new in May of 1988 at a cost of $52K.
AMG, Mosselman, or TurboTechnic performance mods back then would add at least $20K to the cost.

Finding a full new TurboTechnics kit with large bore exhaust at Hughes of Beaconsfield ( authorized U.K. Merc dealer ) for $2600.00 to my door was an incredible bargain.

Right now I have put about $20K in parts and labor to first get the vehicle back to new in the engine ( head gasket etc. ) along with vented brakes, shocks, springs, swaybars, exhaust, and of course the twin turbo kit.

I'm ending up doing what it would have cost in 1988 and paying with 2007 dollars.

Results... a one owner immaculate 1988 300CE Signal Red over Palamino coupe that turns heads and most important performs equal to a new Bimmer 335 TT !!!

Let's keep the sharing of knowledge going !!!

Thanks

Ed

Roman

I am not being critical, what you are attempting is incredible !!!

All I ask is if you dyno a M103-12V that you are building for above 7000 RPM limit that you post a dyno chart.

I'm curious of the power peak, shape, and area under the curve.

Not many two valve per cylinder engines can breath and operate at the high RPM's that you are looking at !!!

Thanks your effort in the experimenting with the limits of the M103

Ed A.

Ed.
Not to show off,but the truth is that my training is primarily within the aeronautic field.
For something as "slow" as a car,it is wise to focus on exhausting air rather than how it enters.
Entry points can always be made up easily by some intelligent placement of sheet metal.
Gettin rid of the gas is another story,and more often than not takes some serious logic and thinking cap on.

I´m also to an extent an advocate of the KISS principle.
Ie;In this case as the NACA is around,why bother trying to reinvent the wheel?

As for underhood temps in traffic(IOW low speeds or standstill),i woulnd´t bother all that much.
Another area where a SA would be of help as you´re able to make it go closed loop over a WB...leaving you with a deal where the WB will counteract the difference in airmass from the heat from a fuel amount point of view.

Racing

Good points !!!

Simplicity is critical in designing for reliability and performance.

One of the reasons I discarded the supplied 1990"s era British piggy back electronics which were layered with redundant components along with some devices that really didn't do much !!!

That's why I'm considering heat extraction because as you state adding air into the engine bay still has to go some where !!!

First considered the NACA theory, but it doesn't look "period" on the W124.
Looked at the 280ZX turbo scoop which had a combination louver and NACA design

Being in the aeronautical field gives you a different vantage point from those that have automotive only training.

Thanks again.

Ed

Would that be one of the marvelous Microdynamics PIC5 units?
Old black one with 1 adjustment screw on it?

As you´re interested,another set of pics.



Cold side outlet.V-band and raw aluminium...simply "smells" right...



Inconel alloyed stainless really is tough to work with.Getting there tho,and as you can see the primarys are of rather....ample dimensions.
Thing is tho,that these engines were run on extremely vivid dimensions when in DTM.I sincerly hope to get away with it IOW.
Can even get a view of the 4" DP-or at least the first part of it.
Would have gone bigger if i hadn´t got the first part of the DP as straight as i did,but this way i see no reason to go overboard.
Had to fab a new pass side enginemount tho.Did so out of 5mm Domex steel-which in turn will be traingulated to the best of my knowledge.
We´re much like Roman proud that we mainly produce what we need and use inhouse at the shop.

Racing

Becoming obvious that your creativity is only limited by the size of the engine bay !!!!

Ed

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Gettin there Ed.
Bit by bit and day by day...

Ed.
Turned out pretty well.



Even looks mean.... (even more so IRL)