Hi guys,

OK this is going to be a long post, it may actually be informative to some, and comical to others, nevertheless have a read.

I belong to a number of forums in my relentless search for information regarding my own project, some of you may know of me from other threads, so fist a bit of background on what I am deviously up to.

I do own a C32 so to say, well at least part of one, I purchased a 2003 M112 AMG motor and box some months ago which are being transplanted into a 1975 260Z, yes I can hear the gasps as you read this, but a buddy of mine is also working on his transplant being a BMW M3 which he just fired up for the first time a few days ago, we are probably best known as the Bavarian chapter on our home S30 forum.

Many will ask why, and that I must be a dreamer, well I'm 46 with an engineering background, not some Tokyo drift want to be, so taking on this project with all of its complexities is to a degree therapy away from my corporate life.

2nd, I have had this car for 28 years, I was 18 when I first purchased it and yes I love the classic shape.

Last and most importantly, if I had gone the other way, it would have been pumping at least $15K into the original L6 running triple 45DCOE Webers only to have achieved 60% at best the power and acceleration this car will be capable of, therefore for a turn key solution I couldn't imagine much better within a 6cyl configuration.

So, all was going well as far as the planning behind this transplant, however, in the past few weeks I learnt that the entire electronics system and hardware from a C32 sedan CANNOT be retro fitted into my car, that's the bad news.

So after spending the better part of a day curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb and thinking about my new position I tried to visualise exactly how the entire AMG package could work and came to the conclusion that dumping the auto trans, ECU and TCM and fitting a manual trans could allow me to move forward, what i have to do however is run something like a MoTeC M600 aftermarket management system instead.

The reason for this is simple, after making another call to the UK and speaking to a tech at ATP about getting my ECU decoded so as to eliminate the security features I learnt that this was only part of the puzzle, the C32's ECU and TCM actually use telemetry from an array of other inputs such as the ABS, and other passive and active systems etc, if one of these telemetry streams is inactive the ECU and TCM read it as being a fault and the entire electronics go into limp mode.

As we all know, Datsun even with all their visionary idea's in the 1970's never equipped my 260Z with such features and retro fitting them all from a Benz would end up costing me the price of a C32 sedan.

If I was to use a manual stick shift like a Getrag 6MT1500with the MoTeC management system basically what I will be dealing with is a lump of metal with pistons injectors etc etc etc that the MoTeC can be set up for.

I put my theory to a buddy of mine, Peter McDonnel who has worked for a number of Australian touring car outfits as chief mechanic and we did some soul searching on the phone and over the net over a few nights and so far it looks doable.

So now it seems I will end up with not only the first S30 powered by a C32 AMG motor, but also the first C32 manual period "FINGERS CROSSED"

One thing did change however, and that was that I started reading up on the Termec T56 6 speed transmission, after once again trolling the forums I found that these were a perfect fit into the floor pan of a Z and required no structural modification of the sheet metal.

In Australia the VE Commodore Sedan running a GenIV L98 6.0L 270kW V8 run these boxes and would prove to be a perfect match up to the M112.

So this morning I contacted Termec and requested they send me a CAD file of the bellhousing so as to be able to create a CAD file so as to manufacture an adaptor plate between the 2.

Here in lays the next step, I am now also searching for a CAD file of the M112/M113 belhousing so as to come up with a hybrid CAD file, and this has led me to this forum and thread.

I see that some work has already been done on other concepts and was hoping that someone might be holding onto the M112/M113 CAD file I'm after?

So before I go off begging MB in Germany for some assistance which I'm not to will even get a response, maybe some kindred enthusiast here may have the answer I'm looking for.

Just to give you all some insight into what the performance figures could be based on this set up, I did some forward projections based on the following gearing.

Differential Ratio 4.11

Ratios in gears

1st : 3.01
2nd : 2.07
3rd : 1.43
4th : 1.00
5th : 0.84
6th : 0.57

Theoretical speeds (MPH) in gears at top of the torque curve 6200 RPM

1st : 38
2nd : 55
3rd : 80
4th : 114
5th : 136
6th : 201

Hope this wets some appetites for a response, for those interested in the MoTeC management system here is a link

http://www.motec.com.au/m600/m600overview/

For a V8 application on a M113 it would be the M800 model

and a few pics of my engine and car for good measure

Cheers

John

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1st off I think this is a great project. I love a well done Z car. The shop next to mine is just finishing up with a show quality turbo car with just about custom everything. Beautiful.
I have never seen a cad file for the bellhousing though. We can get bellhousings that fit most of the engines. The adapter plate that I personally know of was done by one of my customers for putting the Sprinter transmission on a older diesel engine. He did this old school though without computers.
If you would like to run the factory transmission though I can help with that.

Hi Whipple,

Thanks for the offer, however I have decided to dump the Benz electronics so as to now be able to go stick shift instead, in the long run this will give the coupe a bit more of a sporting feel and also allow me to have some advanced tuning done to the motor which the Benz brain wouldnt facilitate as easily.

I would like your opinion howver on the overall package I have discribed, can you see any fundamental flaws in my approach or hardware Im planning on using?

Looks like I will get a reply from MB also, the email has been opened and read today as I recieved an automated verification, and so far no "Thanks but no thanks" reply which is a good sign.

I sent the request off to Mercedes Benz North American Research and Design facility in Carlsbad CA, so fingers crossed I get some mail back with an attachment.

Once again, your comments will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

John

With my control unit for the transmission you do not need the factory engine management or any other factory computers and you can have paddle shifters and very firm shifts if you want. But I see nothing wrong with a stick shift conversion either.
You can not go wrong with Motec. They are pretty much the top in fuel injection. I use Electromotive in my car and like it but Motec with drive by wire would be a nice upgrade. $$$. A v6 i n a Z car would give better balance also.
MB is not helpful with these sort of things even if you are a fairly large company trying to do what you are doing.
Sounds like a fun project and would love to see some pictures of the progress.
Keep us posted.

Thanks for the comments, greatly appreciated.

Im lucky as MoTec's main facility is located about 20 miles from my home and they have been very helpful and also interested in what Im doing expressing they are willing to assist as much as posible with the conversion on a technical basis.

Paddle **** would have been nice, but I have my heart set of a manual conversion now, think it will be more in keeping with the Z's original appeal also.

You are right about the fly by wire accelerator also, I looked at a number of systems that fail to allow for this adaptation, seems MoTec are one of the few that do, and yes the weight of the transplant will come in at a very similar weight to the original cast L6 and box combo but with a far superior weight distribution, so apart from the chassis upgrades I need to make power to weight will be excellent considering.

I may need some advice on the fuel system set up, so may raise a hand at some stage for opinions also.

Cheers

John

you may like to take a look at the nissan 350z six speed, from 05 onwards, miles better ratios... and being a datsun guy you may also love the fact its almost factory!

i am 70% along to fitting said box in my 124 coupe.

__________________
ce 320 amg
widebody
tiwn turbo
Mutty 'der nail'
soon to be a six speed nail


"some mods improve your car and make it into something it never was, other mods, however, although essentially the same, are not, and make that car a ricer"

if your car isnt shiny, you dont know what you are talking about, remember; paint shine = knowledge. In order to be taken seriously, you should spend all your money on paint, (and get a dyno reading).
Dont forget to polish it often

and i forgot to mention, the 350z box is a getrag, rated to 650 hp and way lighter than the t56 box.

it must be from a post 05 car thou, as the early ones have weak sincros.

__________________
ce 320 amg
widebody
tiwn turbo
Mutty 'der nail'
soon to be a six speed nail


"some mods improve your car and make it into something it never was, other mods, however, although essentially the same, are not, and make that car a ricer"

if your car isnt shiny, you dont know what you are talking about, remember; paint shine = knowledge. In order to be taken seriously, you should spend all your money on paint, (and get a dyno reading).
Dont forget to polish it often

Hi Nick

The reason for the choice of the T56 comes down to a number of factors, first as I mentioned they are common in Australian Commodore's commonly known in their 2 door version as a Pontiac GTO in the U.S.A. therefore the aftermarket support when it comes to things like clutch kits etc here in Australia is great making them a very servicable proposition.

Secondly, even though the attached pic isnt my set up, it is what I will end up with, it shows a Z with a T56 fitted in the Z's tunnel and as you will appreciate its a no fuss proposition.

Third, this box should prove bullet proof when it comes to durability, this car will not be a track car but a weekend cruiser more so which I will occasionally (Understatement) call upon to flex its muscles.

I appreciate your suggestion nevertheless.

Cheers

John

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Hey sirpent, you might want to start your own thread on this, since the 722.6 is actually a slushbox.

I saw your thread on HBZ, My 71 will be getting the 104 as opposed to the 112, but I like it all the while.

Are you going to get a custom flywheel made or just adapt using the dual mass from a manual 112 car?
The T56 would be a great box, I'd still be searching for one if I didn't find my low miles R154 'yota box.
Good luck, and if you need any benz parts from the states you cant find, just pm me here or on HBZ and I'll get you set.

__________________
1993 190E 2.6 Sportline

Hey Bob

You are 100% correct, I have hijacked this thread and I apologise to everyone for that, so this will be my last post on here regarding my build.

I originally came across it due to references regarding tranmission transplant and mention of the M113 (M112) by roncallo and wanted to see if anyone was playing with a CAD for those motors.

Just to finish off and answer your questions, I am looking at now using the Gen IV flywheel and clutch assy as oppossed to the M112 manual set up due to the change in boxes from a Getrag to a T56, just makes it easier with splines clutch kits etc.

The Gen IV is 267mm as oppossed to the M112's 240mm but I should be able to pull it off as the adaptor plate bewteen the T56 and the M112 will be between 15-20mm's and this will also dictate the thickness of the spacer between the flywheel and the M112 crank I will need to get fabricated.

Nice find on the r154 by the way, I was looking at them also but they are starting to get long in the tooth here, and with all VE Commodore V8's here now running a T56 they are becoming more common on the 2nd hand parts market here so I think it will suit my needs the best.

Anyhow, enough of my rant, will let this thread get back on track now, apologies once again.

As I progress I may start a thread in the future.

Cheers

John

whipplem,

so for my C36 AMG 1995 car i have to fit the 722.6 and order the ecu from u? how much is it and what work after that do we need to do?

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

The shifter from a w202 or w129. It is the short body one. I think the slk is the same also. Then get the rod length set up for the shifter. I just cut and welded mine. The driver shaft just bolts up. The transmission mount is requires you to drill some new holes in the cross plate for the new mount.
The wiring is pretty simple. I have my tcu under the passenger side dash. I opened up a whole in the tunnel on the passenger side to get the wiring harness to the transmission. It just plugs in. Then power and ground and the speed sensor at the rear diff. I just ran a wire from the connector under the rear seat up through the floor and pulled a signal off there.
Then you need TPS and MAP and Engine RPM. These all can be pulled by one wire from the signal wire on your current stuff. The shifter has its own pigtail to wire up. Reverse lights can be done two different ways. You can use the shifter directly, which I would do or you can send a signal out from the tcu. I do not use neutral safety but you could do this also. Make sure to use relays for load though. 3amps max on any of the outputs from the tcu.
Once everything is wired up you go through setup wizard and set your sensor data and pertinent vehicle data which takes a few minutes and then start driving. I should be able to send you a pretty good calibration file since are cars are very similar.
Make sure that you have your transmission clutch packs tightened up. Adding clutches is not that important for the power you are making unless it is the small nag. I use stock v8 transmissions with a straight six bellhousing swapped on. I tighten up the clutch packs with the tightest retainer rings I can get and and steels. It really is just set up the way you would do and older transmission. This make the shifts so much better and easier to tune. Especially the 3-4 shift. I try to get another clutch in there, k3, if I can. The v8 already has 5 clutches compared to the smaller trans with 3 clutches. The rest are pretty close to the same.
With the new firmware that I have now I really think this is daily drivable for most people once the system is set up properly. We have taken care of the 2-1 downshift during start up. If driving normally it just works. The only way to get it out of sequence is to do something that can easily be avoided and people do not do when driving there cars normally.
Seriously though give me a call and we can discuss this all at length for you to be comfortable with it all.

Thank you for the details, its really helpfull. i will call soon. Im a little strapped for cash but its a project that will happen, especially that i plan on sc my amg. so the old box i have thou it can take the power since it has the V8 internals from factory and it is such a reliable box, it cant cope with positive pressure since it shifts mainly by manifold pressure.

i tired that on the 300 w124 when it was boosted and it never slipped but first to second it was so harsh it ripped the rubber joints and cracked the subframe many times. the harshnes was on part throttle.

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

Any chance the new 7 speeder can be used?

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

I had a couple of guys that were working on this and when they asked to order the control units they just disappeared. The control unit cannot control more than 6 speeds but we could skip 1st or 7th. I do not see any reason to use them though. And you would have to make an adapter plate. Just bolt on the 722.6.