Quickest Spooling Turbo for M104 ? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Oops2Fast · #1 01-20-2009, 10:29 PM

Guys, I'm planning to turbo my C36 (4 A/T). I'm completely new to turbo tuning. My goal is 350-420whp and the car is intended for street use with occasional track time. I prefer quick spool (max spool at 2500-2800 RPM) and willing to sacrifice top end power.
I'm thinking to buy Garret GT3071R (A/R 0.64) or GT30R (A/R 0.63).
Are these the right turbos? Any better option to meet my goal?
Any input is appreciated.

Turbo E320 · #2 01-20-2009, 10:50 PM

I use a T3/60-1 but I didnt hit full spool with stock compression till around 3100. The auto tranny is the biggest downfall. Automatic cars do better with twin turbos like two small 250hp turbos. Like these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SPA-Turbo-50-36-T3-turbocharger-T3-T4-50-36-50-trim_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQitemZ320163988797QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPar tsQ5fAccessories These would spool faster than a dude on crack. They can take around 300hp a piece and spool extremely fast.

If you want super fast spool with a 400hp single turbo setup the only way is to go ball bearing.

Oops2Fast · #3 01-20-2009, 11:08 PM

Since I'm very new to turbo scene, I'm afraid to take the twin turbo route. I heard the auto tranny could handle up to 500whp? My goal is 420whp do you think the tranny would have problem?

Turbo E320 · #4 01-20-2009, 11:26 PM

You'll need one awesome, fan cooled tranny fluid cooler if you want the car to handle that kind of power. My 722.6 blew at 52K miles with 352rwhp and 366rwtq but the 722.4 should be a hell of a lot stronger than my weak 5spd tranny. The 97 722.6 was the weakest of them all, lol I found that out quick.

Twin turbos are easy and I know exactly where you need to pull the oil from and what to use. I didnt know **** about turbo's either until I did up my car, Im just a stupid 18 year old kid

. TT manifolds are easier to make as well

.

Im not sure if you can get your power goals with the stock 10.5:1 compression. You may want to grab a spare piston and send it off to Ross or CP pistons and have them make a set to lower the compression.

There was a 500hp TT C36 several years ago. Search this forum section for the photos. I know they are in the Performance Paddock.

Oops2Fast · #5 01-21-2009, 12:08 AM

I plan to use tranny cooler (the long one) and bring down the CR to 9:1. My first goal is 350whp and gradually bring up to around 400whp is possible.
BTW, do you know the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) of M104?

c280nz · #6 01-21-2009, 01:13 AM

i went large single on my m104 c280, everyone else swears to use twin for fast spooling and thats what you want, so if thats important to you go twin or get a twin entry single, roman can probebly reccomend which single to fit your application,

whipplem104 · #7 01-21-2009, 01:16 AM

Your goals are very attainable. It is just going to cost a fair amount.
Go for it!!
I know a couple of gentlemen that have done turbos on 3.6ls. The first hurdle after getting some boost is the compression ratio. 400-425 crank hp is very easy without modifications. If you plan on replacing your headgasket the cometic mls gasket I have recently found out does work. The next problem is that the cylinder walls are very thin on the 3.6. The two high hp cars I know of have gone back to using the 3.2l block with the 3.6 crank. If it was me, I would go buy a 3.2l engine complete from a salvage yard and start with that. Once you get dialed in then you can think about installing the 3.6l crank and going custom rods and pistons. Rods are a must for the end goal. But not necessary to start.
As far as turbo selection, a twin scroll should spool very quickly. You will get lots of input on this subject but mostly it is a lot of opinion, including mine. A gt30 is a good size range, but I might go for a 35. If you get full boost below 3000rpm all you can do is burn outs anyway. Besides even at 3-4 lbs of boost the engine really starts to make some good power.
As far as the transmission. It will handle a lot of power. Turn you modulator up a couple of turns and it will firm up the shifts. I ran mine for 65,000 miles on my blower motor for a total of 130,000 without a single failure.

JayRash · #8 01-21-2009, 01:20 AM

i have a reservation regarding the thin walled cylinders of the 3.6 M104, they might take high power for a while but not so sure u'll clear over heating easily, but hey this is me

, any way as a single turbo setup look for a Mitsubishi evo 9 turbo should sell for abt 400 usd max secondhand in the US, those are good for abt 380 - 400 hp max, but are twin scroll with amazing spool, i mean on a 2.0 4 banger at 8.8 CR they have over 8 psi at 2500. am sure on a 3.6 9.1 CR it will do gr8.

Oops2Fast · #9 01-21-2009, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c280nz

i went large single on my m104 c280, everyone else swears to use twin for fast spooling and thats what you want, so if thats important to you go twin or get a twin entry single, roman can probebly reccomend which single to fit your application,

What turbo has a twin entry? Is there any GT with twin entry?

Oops2Fast · #10 01-21-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whipplem104

Your goals are very attainable. It is just going to cost a fair amount.
Go for it!!
I know a couple of gentlemen that have done turbos on 3.6ls. The first hurdle after getting some boost is the compression ratio. 400-425 crank hp is very easy without modifications. If you plan on replacing your headgasket the cometic mls gasket I have recently found out does work. The next problem is that the cylinder walls are very thin on the 3.6. The two high hp cars I know of have gone back to using the 3.2l block with the 3.6 crank. If it was me, I would go buy a 3.2l engine complete from a salvage yard and start with that. Once you get dialed in then you can think about installing the 3.6l crank and going custom rods and pistons. Rods are a must for the end goal. But not necessary to start.
As far as turbo selection, a twin scroll should spool very quickly. You will get lots of input on this subject but mostly it is a lot of opinion, including mine. A gt30 is a good size range, but I might go for a 35. If you get full boost below 3000rpm all you can do is burn outs anyway. Besides even at 3-4 lbs of boost the engine really starts to make some good power.
As far as the transmission. It will handle a lot of power. Turn you modulator up a couple of turns and it will firm up the shifts. I ran mine for 65,000 miles on my blower motor for a total of 130,000 without a single failure.

So 425 crank hp is still safe for my cylinder walls even if I don't bring down my CR? Garret GT30 / GT35 is a twin scroll turbo right? Sorry if my question is really basic coz I know nothing bout these snails.

c280nz · #11 01-21-2009, 05:02 AM

i really wouldnt even worry about a twin scroll anyway, just get a cheap ebay turbo and go for it,
the turbo will cause you the least of your problems,
i use a t3/t4 hybrid, one of these series turbos would work on your application so another option for you, and it gives a good spool and are readily available/upgradeable, and go for an external wastgate, 40mm for good boost control.
as far as fueling it,
stand alone is best option, but there goes probebebly 2k+ usd.

but if you are only going to be running low boost say up to 5-6psi then you may be able to get away with running some sort of extra injector setup,
but you need a charge cooler as a given, either front mount or water/air.
or even water/meth injection would be best.

anymore than 5-6psi you will need ignition timing adjust, or run it on race fuel, or have some serious charge cooling+ live in antartica.
gotta stop detonation

Oops2Fast · #12 01-21-2009, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c280nz

i really wouldnt even worry about a twin scroll anyway, just get a cheap ebay turbo and go for it,
the turbo will cause you the least of your problems,
i use a t3/t4 hybrid, one of these series turbos would work on your application so another option for you, and it gives a good spool and are readily available/upgradeable, and go for an external wastgate, 40mm for good boost control.
as far as fueling it,
stand alone is best option, but there goes probebebly 2k+ usd.

but if you are only going to be running low boost say up to 5-6psi then you may be able to get away with running some sort of extra injector setup,
but you need a charge cooler as a given, either front mount or water/air.
or even water/meth injection would be best.

anymore than 5-6psi you will need ignition timing adjust, or run it on race fuel, or have some serious charge cooling+ live in antartica.
gotta stop detonation

I tihink you're right. Since this is my first time, I'll go with low tech and simple set up. It's not wise for a beginner like me to spend big bucks anyway. I have someone who will help me built the system (obviously) to cover intercooler, fuel management, etc.

c280nz · #13 01-21-2009, 01:57 PM

once you start building it let me know, i have the same car as you, w202 c class with a turbo m104 so i can give you pointers on how i got things to fit, and what to look out for etc

Oops2Fast · #14 03-06-2009, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c280nz

once you start building it let me know, i have the same car as you, w202 c class with a turbo m104 so i can give you pointers on how i got things to fit, and what to look out for etc

Sure thing! After read and reread all good inputs on this thread, I decided to use 3.2 M104. I have out off this forum for a while to hunt for used 3.2 M104 with manual trans. Now that I found it, I wonder how to strengthen the trans. Is there any company that could build custom flywheel and clutch?

JayRash · #15 03-06-2009, 01:52 AM

You can try fitting a clutch frm the mercedes sprinter, i heard it can take some 700Nm of torque