Tuning with CIS - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

400Eric · #61 03-10-2009, 01:57 AM

"LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING !"

"Published ratings for 1988 300CE M103-12V are 177HP / 188 Torque."

"Baseline dyno done on 3/30/2007 was 136HP / 145 torque.
Pulls were made on a Mustang load dyno which indicates about 18% lower then an inertia dyno."

"Drive train loss = 30%."

"Turbotechnics kit installed with only mod being the application of a Split Second stand alone controller to fire the two additional injectors.
KE-Jetronic and fuel delivery system remains stock."

"5/24/2007 dyno pull 196HP / 221 Torque."

"After I got the car back I replaced the supplied intake and boost coil hoses with silicon and aluminum tube.
The supplied Fram panel filter was replaced with a K&N filter.
The R16 resistor removed to pull about 6 degrees advance."

"Today I put it back on a Mustang load dyno to see what my mods produced."

"1/17/2009 219HP / 254 Torque."

"The AFR was great under boost at 11.9 under full boost.
What was noticed was that the boost was only at 6.2 max with an average of 5.4"

"So about two turns on the wastegate linkage on the Garrett T2's and..."

"261HP / 302 Torque"

"This is at the rear wheels.
Max boost now 7.3 with a 6.9 average.
Add back the 30% drive train loss and it's at 340HP / 393 Torque."

"Torque is significant...back end goes out with any hard throttle on the 2-3 shift !!!"

The above is RBYCC's documented proof that the removal of that Knappy resistor even helps his boosted car. He said: "The R16 resistor removed to pull about 6 degrees advance." But if you read the whole thread it's clear he meant to say: "...to add 6 degrees of advance"
The whole thread is here: 300ce turbotechnics dyno revisit (I know most of you already know about it). Regards, Eric

400Eric · #62 03-10-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

It makes a real difference in traction, even on street tires. True DOT drag radials (or slicks) run on far lower pressures. Next time you're at the strip, and spinning the tires at 35psi, let 10psi out of the rears and try again. I'll be shocked if you report zero improvement in traction. I find the sweet spot on street tires is generally in the mid-20's.

No, they are different. The S-class wheels will have M14 bolt holes and ball seats. You'd need to use special M12 bolts with M14 seats to mount those up. The 500E wheels are specific to the 124 chassis. And they will be too wide, wrong offset, cause clearance issues, etc. You're better off sticking with 7.0 or 7.5 wheels on that car, around ET37-ET40. Tons of choices from the 202, 203, 208, 209, 210, and 170 chassis. Don't screw around with 124 or 129 wheels, that's asking for problems.

Front/rear only is for clearance, you can run a little wider out back (8.5 with 245's, with the proper offset, is the realistic maximum on a non-500E). Up front, 7.5 with 225's is fine, 8.0 with 235's is pushing it. All of these combos need rolled fender lips, fender spacers, and preferably the strut travel limiters too, as detailed in the AMG wheel install docs on my website.

Uh, btw, we should probably move this discussion into a new thread, don'tcha think? The CIS guys probably aren't interested, lol!

CIS guys like bigger wheels too! Remember, I'm a CIS guy too! We aren't going to get to far off topic I promise. I just want to know real quick where I can get those special bolts and the other thing is I'm still not clear if you think these 16 inch W-140 wheels are OK for a W-124 or not. I really like them cuz 1) I already have half a set, 2)They look just like my stock 15s so I can maintain the sleeper look and 3)They are super cheap. Thanks G-man!

pentoman · #63 03-10-2009, 06:50 AM

It's not too OT

Has anyone played with the correction plug, in my case it's the one with ECE written on it back by the ECU and with tamper-proof wire on it?

This was my post to another forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me elsewhere

Just found what that plug at the back of the engine bay by the ECU (the one with the metal wire round it) does.

Anyway I think it was said before but it is for fixing problems with the engine, but I think it is there as a last resort, obviously not to bypass existing engine problems. I really do NOT recommend playing with this or trying to fix stuff with it, because you'll probably just end up confusing everything even further!

On a 2.5-16 the p/n is 014 545 70 28.
Positions 1-7 have resistance 51,105,169,249,348,442,590 ohms respectively.
These correspond to:
1 none (original state)
2 Excessive part load consumption when engine at operating
temperature
3 Pickup faults when engine at operating temperature
4 Slight pickup faults in warming-up phase
5 Poor throttle response when cold
6 Poor throttle response and pickup in warming-up phase
7 Very poor throttle response when cold, driving faults in warming-up phase

found http://www.hamsk.ru/murzik/KE-jetronic/WIS%20Test%20data%20KE.pdf

It's different for a KAT engine, check the p/n of your switch.

interesting..ish

JayRash · #64 03-10-2009, 07:21 AM

Thank you pentoman, u have no idea what help ur post is. so if i need more part thort fuel i stick it to 2????

pentoman · #65 03-10-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

Thank you pentoman, u have no idea what help ur post is. so if i need more part thort fuel i stick it to 2????

Well first you want to check the part number on your switch is 014 545 70 28 because that's what those values are posted for (check the link). If it's the other number (which appears to be on KAT models) then the values are different. As you assume, I assume it's changing the fuelling map or something, at certain loads/rpms/temps, but I don't know. It could be worth setting and trying it for a few days though (if you didn't have a broke piston

).

JayRash · #66 03-10-2009, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

Sorry to hear about this but I believe you can't keep a good car down and you can't keep a good man down. You'll bring her back. Regards, Eric

ya thanx mate,car is already in the shops for an engine rebuild, might go for a single turbo setup and a FMIC. still not sure abt the turbo setup, but i know that one of my turbos needs a rebuild as well.

will make up my mind this week.

JayRash · #67 03-10-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pentoman

Well first you want to check the part number on your switch is 014 545 70 28 because that's what those values are posted for (check the link). If it's the other number (which appears to be on KAT models) then the values are different. As you assume, I assume it's changing the fuelling map or something, at certain loads/rpms/temps, but I don't know. It could be worth setting and trying it for a few days though (if you didn't have a broke piston

).

ya once car is back on the road ill try it. can you email me the pdf to jayrasheed@gmail.com please. it doesn't seem to open the link you posted.

if its too much trouble just point me to another link, as its obvious i love knowing abt the cis.

gsxr · #68 03-10-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

CIS guys like bigger wheels too! Remember, I'm a CIS guy too! We aren't going to get to far off topic I promise. I just want to know real quick where I can get those special bolts and the other thing is I'm still not clear if you think these 16 inch W-140 wheels are OK for a W-124 or not. I really like them cuz 1) I already have half a set, 2)They look just like my stock 15s so I can maintain the sleeper look and 3)They are super cheap. Thanks G-man!

M12 bolts with M14 ball seats can be purchased from this vendor. I think the W140 wheels are 16x7.5, with offset ET51 (I think), which may not fit at all... or it will at least be VERY close to the strut, or require spacers (which are a very bad idea). The R129 wheels will be 16x8.0, and I'm not sure about the offset on those, could be ET34 like the 500E wheels though. These will stick out too far and rub the fenders.

gsxr · #69 03-10-2009, 11:39 AM

I still think the year of the car (more specifically, the part number of the EZL module) is critical as to if the "resistor mod" provides ignition advance, or ignition retard. I don't think I've seen anyone with a 1986 or 1987 300E report great results by yanking the resistor. (??)

On a side note, remember that zero ohms is not the same as infinite ohms, they are opposite. Zero ohms would require a piece of wire to short out the terminals, infinite ohms means you can remove the wire/resistor/whatever. The M103 service manual indicates zero ohms as one of the three options, but this could be a typo. (??)

JayRash · #70 03-10-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

I still think the year of the car (more specifically, the part number of the EZL module) is critical as to if the "resistor mod" provides ignition advance, or ignition retard. I don't think I've seen anyone with a 1986 or 1987 300E report great results by yanking the resistor. (??)

On a side note, remember that zero ohms is not the same as infinite ohms, they are opposite. Zero ohms would require a piece of wire to short out the terminals, infinite ohms means you can remove the wire/resistor/whatever. The M103 service manual indicates zero ohms as one of the three options, but this could be a typo. (??)

true, but with all the docs in this thread it should be easy to fit a variable resistor to the timing side of the temp sens and try more advance. i still say it will give good hp over stock. hope some of u try it for proof.

as for my turbo setup, will be fitting my stock exhaust manifolds and custom make 2 pipes to fit on those and join in flange that fits a mitsubishi evo 8 or 9 turbo. then make all the piping need to fit a w202 c230 komp front mount intercooler.

what do you think guys???

RBYCC · #71 03-10-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

I still think the year of the car (more specifically, the part number of the EZL module) is critical as to if the "resistor mod" provides ignition advance, or ignition retard. I don't think I've seen anyone with a 1986 or 1987 300E report great results by yanking the resistor. (??)

On a side note, remember that zero ohms is not the same as infinite ohms, they are opposite. Zero ohms would require a piece of wire to short out the terminals, infinite ohms means you can remove the wire/resistor/whatever. The M103 service manual indicates zero ohms as one of the three options, but this could be a typo. (??)

On the world or euro cars with the adjustable resistance, every turn/notch is a three degree interval.

The added advance is mechanical only as the full vacuum advance is the same.

If you look at the charts you posted the difference between the "S" and "N" setting is six degrees.

Still not really noticeable in most cars, more noticeable in a tuned or boosted vehicle.

gsxr · #72 03-10-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

As far as the info goes I think it is here: READ!!! Free HP for W201 & W124 owners! (Pictures!) Just be sure to not skip anything and read everything on every link (yeah, it's gonna take a while but I think the info you want is in there somewhere).

I just re-read that whole stupid thread. There is a huge amount of conflicting information. A number of people with M119 engines were claiming gains on the butt dyno, which we both know is absolutely false. At least one guy had the guts to say it had zero effect on his 400E (actually, his numbers showed a power LOSS). Also of interest is that many M103 owners had widely different results - some claiming massive power gains, others saying it did nothing at all. Post #235 has a guy who did dyno runs and proved basically zero power gain with or without the resistor. At best, on a stock engine, it may offer some part-throttle power gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

Oops, I just realized that this is the thread you refer to as a "steaming pile of..." but somewhere in there is a post or a link from a guy that shows the actual number of degrees of advance and at what RPM the M-103 receives that advance with and with-out the 24 81 resistor.

Yeah, every list I've seen with details of the 7 positions has different resistor values, different degrees of retard, and different claimed effects. Like I said earlier, I think it varies with model & year and there is no single, master list that applies to all cars. Here's my favorite post (#219) from the "steaming pile" thread, which I suspect has the most accurate answer, direct from RENNtech. I added some bold highlight:

-----Original Message-----
From: Hartmut Feyhl
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:02 PM
To: 'Scott M. Shell'
Subject: RE: W124 M119 motor question

Not so easy, sorry. There are many different models and even much more different part#’s for the ignition system (EZL) and every unit works different and the resistors have a different meaning. In most cases, position # 7 is diagnostic mode, on other units it’s reversed, on other units only 3 positions work and on some units it doesn’t work at all. On those really old models where it does work it can overheat the catalytic converter and destroy it. That is the real reason why Mercedes has on cars equipped with cats a fixed resistor in every country. They were concerned for their cats, not the quality of the fuel.

M119 engines with LH or KE usually have 2400 ohm with cats and either 220 or 470 ohm without cat ( depending on control unit ). If you want to risk your cats you can try it. The difference is maybe 2 hp and not noticeable.

Hartmut

Here is some additional good reading on the same topic - I agree completely with Greg's findings in the first post (two threads, same initial post, different replies in each though):

Read this if you have done the "free horsepower upgrade"
Those with M102 & M103 "free power upgrade" must read!

400Eric · #73 03-10-2009, 06:30 PM

Thanks for the wheel bolt link G-man!
So one of my suspicions is confirmed---We (U.S.) got the fixed resistor for emissions reasons.
The pattern I noticed is that 88 and 89 guys seemed to be the most positive about the mod. 90 and later guys not as positive. 86-87 guys in between those extremes.
Also I still believe that the majority of the gain is in low end torque and mid range torque.
Lots of stuff to digest here---will be back tonight.
Isn't this a beautiful thing though? We have a guy in the middle east, one in England, 2 on opposite ends of the U.S. and one kinda in the middle all sharing their knowledge and ideas. I know it's not that unusual in these days of the world wide web but I still can't help but feel lifted by it all. Gives me hope for humanity. (G-man, I don't know where you get all those cool icons but this is a good place to insert one of those group hugs---I just love those group hugs!) Regards

JayRash · #74 03-10-2009, 06:32 PM

gsxr. So thats where u been the last few hours.

ya man messing around with the plug wont make any real diff. I moved this switch to inside my car to have control over retard or advance over the timing. But only cause i was fooling the temp sensor to get more advance which lead to some ping in very hot ambient temps. Also when ever i used high oct fuel i used to pull more timing thru it.

As for the injection side, i used to enrich it also by fooling the temp sensor. But i only used high resistor values for when i mixed alcohol in my tank, as this would cause the car to lean out.

I had a friend who didnt believe that the timing trick works untill i raced his c320 against my car with and with out the temp trick.

Any way as u say each ezl seems to respond differently. But i am sure a try will help.

gsxr · #75 03-10-2009, 06:37 PM

Guys, I think the temp sensor trick has much more potential for real, measureable power gains. Eric basically proved this already, and I plan to verify it on my cars by the end of April (it's still snowing around here, so my cars are hibernating). The ignition mod appears to have far more limited effect (and is useless on M119 engines anyway).