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  #16  
Old 05-06-2009, 08:30 PM
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If you're going to pull the timing cover to put the guide rail in, I'd look into installing a 603 oil pump gear and chain. It has a lower tooth count and therefore runs the oil pump a bit faster. Given the small displacement of the 103's pump, it would be a good upgrade when feeding a turbo.

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90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:33 AM
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Oh bad luck! your going thru the exact thing i went thru when i first boosted the MERC.
I blew a H.G first week driving the car, i was running tooo lean.
So u think ur HG blew out of age, cant it be due to the knock u had (or have pinned down that issue.)

Just check if the injector on that piston is flowing enough, i mean having a correct AFR doesn't deal out the fact that an injector out of six can be spraying much less than the others. Don't know really just thinking out loud here.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #18  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:18 AM
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duxthe, thanks for the info, I'll look into the gear and chain.

Jay, I'm 99% positive it's from the age of the gasket , you can see in the pictures that it looks like it's started to decompose, coming from the fact that the engine was not driven for a long time before I installed it in my car. The injectors are new and checked. Just for record, AFR was ~ 11.5 and the ignition timing was 24 degs. @ 0.5 . Anyway, hope to change the guide rail Saturday and then do some g-tech timed runs (1/4 mile and hp) on Sunday.
__________________
190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)

Last edited by Joreto; 05-07-2009 at 07:27 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-07-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
If you're going to pull the timing cover to put the guide rail in, I'd look into installing a 603 oil pump gear and chain. It has a lower tooth count and therefore runs the oil pump a bit faster. Given the small displacement of the 103's pump, it would be a good upgrade when feeding a turbo.
Stock pump is more then capable of a twin turbo application.
Neither Turbotechnics or Mosselmann had concerns about the stock pump and some of these cars are approaching 200K miles without having to open the engine.
The pump maintains design pressure and the feed to the one or two turbos in no way lessens this pressure or reduces volume to the engine.
If it's not broke then don't fix it....
__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #20  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:27 PM
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While certainly not necessary, I still maintain it is a good idea. The 103 has the small pump and the slow spinning gear. The 104 has more oil demand and has the larger pump. The 603 has even more demand and has the larger volume pump and has the smaller (faster) oil pump gear. (the 603 also has a higher pressure relief valve spring) All of these engines have almost identical reciprocating assemblies, the differences are the consumers in the oil supply. There is a correlation between the oil demands of the engine and the oil pump output. Given that he will be looking right at the oil pump gear and chain while swapping out the rail, it would be an easy swap to switch out the oil pump drive gear and chain for more oil volume at lower engine speeds.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #21  
Old 05-07-2009, 02:03 PM
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on this i agree with Duxthe1, especially since the car has an SA system, ie has potential to make big hp numbers. I also advise on fitting at least an oil to water cooling element from an M103 W126 engine ( engines on those cars had this oil cooler) or at least check if the M104 cooler can fit. Even more, try locating the cooler from the 3.0-24 valve M104 as this is an oil to air unit that has the radiator located in the front bumper on the side.

just some ideas, but the oil cooler i say is a must have.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

Last edited by JayRash; 05-07-2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #22  
Old 05-07-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
on this i agree with Duxthe1, especially since the car has an SA system, ie has potential to make big hp numbers. I also advise on fitting at least an oil to water cooling element from an M103 W126 engine ( engines on those cars had this oil cooler) or at least check if the M104 cooler can fit. Even more, try locating the cooler from the 3.0-24 valve M104 as this is an oil to air unit that has the radiator located in the front bumper on the side.

just some ideas, but the oil cooler i say is a must have.
Jay

Disgree with you..it's overkill...

Sometimes when you fiddle too much you end up with that which you don't need...

I'm old school and making documented power with an unopened engine...

My water temp is as stock, and oil temp never a problem.

My turbos are water and oil cooled so the additional heat is easily absorbed by the stock systems.

No pinging, no overheating, perfect fuel maps at close to 10lbs boost.
Installed an oil catch can and so far not a drop of blow by which indicates pressure not excessive in the engine.

These cars were over enginereed and just about all the stock components can accept boost without change...including fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulator and injectors....

Any of the changes that are being suggested would not provide me anymore power or reliability...

But choice makes the world interesting...I can only go by what I've proven that makes power on a dyno !

Ed A.
__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #23  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:22 PM
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ed
I agree, but even the 36 with its mere 270 hp has an oil cooler. After all for an engine to make over 100hp/liter and be reliable under heavy use, it needs some basic tools. The cooler is no over kill IMO.
But i agree that the M103 is one over kill in engineering for the power it makes.
In my engine's rebuild i ended using my same pistons and rods
Just a new rings set. And the broken ring on piston one didnt scar the wall. All clearances were still in acceptable range despite the 230k miles + of tough usage.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #24  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
ed
I agree, but even the 36 with its mere 270 hp has an oil cooler. After all for an engine to make over 100hp/liter and be reliable under heavy use, it needs some basic tools. The cooler is no over kill IMO.
But i agree that the M103 is one over kill in engineering for the power it makes.
In my engine's rebuild i ended using my same pistons and rods
Just a new rings set. And the broken ring on piston one didnt scar the wall. All clearances were still in acceptable range despite the 230k miles + of tough usage.
Jay

More volume and cooler oil is great...
Point that I'm trying to make is that the M103 does not have the same internal oil delivery system as the M104 or the 603? diesel.
You'll end up not with anymore volume but more pressure and a quicker return to the oil pan.
If you wanted more pressure you could just change the spring in the M103 pump.
Either way you're not getting any volume due to the system restrictions...
Remember the oil that is important is just in the form of a very thin film...

An oil cooler is a different thing...I agree it's not overkill....common on cars that do heavy service in rough ambient conditions, same for a trans cooler.
My stock 180hp? W113 has an oil cooler mounted next to the radiator.

It's all about heat transfer and extraction...

To me the M103 is one of the most rugged engines that Merc has built...simplistic, strong and can make much power without breaking.
Stock compression is a natural for boost...
But we know that !!!

Ed
__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #25  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:23 PM
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true ed.
Ironic that my M110 has an oilcooler where as my M103 has absolutely no oil cooler for the engine.!

But still for me the M103 is probably the best engine ever made.
A close contender would be nissan's inline 6 in the old skyline GT-R.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2009, 02:23 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2009, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.
If 110 is all u see then you can do without an oil coooler, it sure is a plus to have though.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2009, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.

I see about the same oil temps...that's why I feel the stock pump/delivery system will handle ( and in my case does ) a twin turbo install.

The M103 is an over engineered low RPM power band engine and if maintained doesn't exhibit problems with fluid flow and cooling.
__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2009, 01:44 PM
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The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown. Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #30  
Old 05-08-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown. Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.

Its a discouraging post !!!!!, unfortunately it might be very true as my engine after 25k KM with the turbo kit suffered the following:
- 1st and 6th rod clearances were off
- piston 1 suffered broken ring.
- piston 1 has a very very slight deformation on the ring land.

But i have to admit that my car had very high mileage on it before the turbo kit. Then during the first few 1000 km with the kit, the engine ran lean at the top end with knock on every other full run.

even after ironing out almost all my issues with the alcohol kit my car still ran slightly lean from 3000 to 4000 rpm.
and i still believe that i used more water than i should have by mere mistake breaking my ring. Actually i also had a very weird issue, chlippo even got the chance to hear the knock my car used to have. It was an issue that i believe was due to excessive oil due to a blown turbo seal, and the knock would go away after a few part throttle runs (knock was only in when close to full throttle).



All this to say that if u properly tune the M103 turbo like Ed's setup and u will enjoy a reliable engine. Mess the tune abit and it will be expensive.
Duxthe1, I am leaning to the idea that the mosselman car had its enrichment system pack up, running lean and causing the damage. And all it needs is a few runs lean to have irreversible damage that will kill the engine eventually, even after sorting any fueling issues.

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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