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  #31  
Old 05-08-2009, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown. Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.
Neither Willy Mosselman or Turbotechnics was able to solve the AFR dilemma under boost.
Mosselman used a proprietary controller that still had detonation problems under boost.
Turbotechnics went in the correct direction with additional injectors but did not have the ability to control them effectively with their piggyback unit.
They both resorted to pulling timing.

In late 2006 when I purchased a NOS TT kit, I sought out the only individual who knows how to make power with the KE-Jetronic.
In fact Willy Mosselman is on record that this individual made his turbos go faster then he could ( Autoweek August 17, 1987 )

It took a great deal of collaboration to determine the best way to maintain the KE as stock but yet get optimum AFR under boost.
Took a lot of R&D, trial and error and hours on a dyno.

The end result is still working very strong after two years and making more power with every adjustment made on a dyno.
In fact I run about a 6 degree advance over stock.

To say the M103 isn't a long term turbo foundation based on a junk engine you purchased shows a lack of knowledge of how many twin turbo M103's are still in service.
Initial installs go back to 1986 and many of the TT"s are documented with close to 200K miles.

The engine doesn't need any more oil, or a larger throttle body or the EZL or KE control to be fiddled with, not even a change over to EFI.....it just needs to have a control that will assure an AFR of around 11.7 under boost..

I'm running 5 second 60's and low 13's-108 using a G-Tech 3 axis accelerometer....and the car passed state emissions with flying colors !!!

And it will go faster with my next project which is getting more power to the ground...running around 340HP / 390 torque at the crank....in essence I've so far doubled the published horsepower.
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http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #32  
Old 05-08-2009, 06:21 PM
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I will be turbocharging my M103 (with jayrash help and help and help) this summer hopefuly so... dont scare me guys !
I stand by a fact that mercedes may have overengineered this engine and we all know that. But it wasnt overengineered to be turbocharged and handle 400 hp.
I dont know what is the limt that the M103 can handle but for sure more the setup is clean and well done, less the engine will suffer
The thing isnt by growing the hp and torque numbers...we need the car to run so we can have fun.
Great job on the car man! i really like your exhaust manifold! ive been trying to find one like this since 1 year
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  #33  
Old 05-08-2009, 08:35 PM
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We could argue the point back and forth ad infinitum. You're right that it doesn't need more oil to function. I don't insist that it does, but I do insist that it is a good idea. There are two ways to look at it.... you can increase the oil demand and hope that supply stays within acceptable limits. That will be fine.... right up to the point that it isn't. The second option is to implement the same engineering that Mercedes already put into its engines with higher oil demands by replacing two parts that are easily accessible during the upcoming repairs. Honestly if he weren't already pulling the timing cover I wouldn't have even suggested it as it is a good bit of labor to just go in after the gear alone. There is no more power to be had and probably there will be a little more parasitic pumping losses. But this isn't about 1/2 hp @6000RPM, it is about your margin of safety. The 103 is a well built motor as is and can take a lot of punishment. However when you start getting near to double it's rated output do you want to be on the low side of that margin of safety or on the high side?
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90 300TE 4-Matic

Turbo 103 4-Matic, 3 cam advance
11-18 PSI, A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS II Extra, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exhaust, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Brake Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 Front and Rear Diff, 1st Gear Start

91 300CE parting

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000 running 722.6 trans, 600W PWM fan, water injection

Last edited by duxthe1; 05-08-2009 at 08:38 PM. Reason: poor spelling
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  #34  
Old 05-09-2009, 05:53 PM
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Considering all that Roman and RBYCC have accomplished with m103's, being total opposites from one another, there isn't much to argue about turbo m103's or their power holding.

Roman took the modern approach for maximum power and RBYCC added only what he needed in order to have a stockish, super-reliable setup. The one thing that unifies the two is the fact that they kept their M103's in tip top shape, RBYCC owned his from day one off the showroom floor and Roman totally rebuilt his junkyard engine for big power from the start. RBYCC's is a testment to the reliability of the engine and Roman gave us piles of info on the tolerances of the engine. The stock engine has been revved to 10K+ rpm, boosted over 20psi, made well over 600rwhp and hammered on everywhere. The M103 is Mercedes' 2jz of engines.
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1997 Mercedes E320 Turbo
Garrett T3/60-1 Turbocharger
Custom Water Intercooler Setup
352rwhp/366rwtq @ 8.6psi in '08

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  #35  
Old 05-12-2009, 02:55 AM
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Small update. I put the engine back together and fired it up, bad news is that it's working on 3 or 4 cyl, looks like there is some problem no cyl 4,6 and maybe 5. They have spark and fuel (but spark plugs look wet on 4 and 6-th ), there is no smoke from the exhaust or the ventilation. Suspect is stack valve lifters which don't close the valves fully and perhaps broken ring lands. A friend also suggested the there maybe a problem with the head gasket. Tonight after work I'll do a compression test a see what comes out.

P.S. Strange thing is that when I disconnect the injector (the electric plug) from cyl 4-6 the engine starts to work smoother .....
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #36  
Old 05-13-2009, 02:16 AM
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Did the compression test last night, turns out that there is no compression at all on the 6-th cylinder. Put oil in the cylinder measured again and again no compression. This lead me to think that a valve was not closing, so I took off the valve lifters on the 6-th cyl. (thought that there might be a stuck lifter) and measured again, again no compression . Did a smoke test (I don't smoke but ..), blew cigarette smoke into the 6-th cylinder to see were it'll come out. It came out of the plug hole in cylinder 1 when I put a plug in the 1-st cylinder it came out off cylinder number 4. So I'm thinking that this might indicate a cracked ring land on the 6-th cylinder or bad valve (smoke going through the exhaust header than back to 1-st or 4-th cylinder). Thinking that if it's a cracked ring land it should show at least a bit of compression on the measuring gauge ?


P.S. The head will be coming out in the following days and if the problem is not a valve , then the whole engine will come out to determine the problem and fix it .

P.P.S Also there is a lot of oil in the intake manifold ....
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)

Last edited by Joreto; 05-13-2009 at 02:28 AM.
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  #37  
Old 05-13-2009, 02:35 AM
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**** thats a downer man, good luck
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Jay,
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-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #38  
Old 05-13-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
**** thats a downer man, good luck
yes, bad luck, but there may be hope yet . Spoke to a friend who is a mechanic and according to him it's most probably a stuck lifter, so this evening I'll take off the lifters on the 6-th cylinder and have him check and clean them tomorrow. Keep you finger crossed, with some luck the car might be good to go tomorrow night .
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #39  
Old 05-13-2009, 12:29 PM
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If you have the money get this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-300E-Rebuilt-head-86-92-R1030162001_W0QQitemZ350200135942QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5189 8e0106&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116
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1997 Mercedes E320 Turbo
Garrett T3/60-1 Turbocharger
Custom Water Intercooler Setup
352rwhp/366rwtq @ 8.6psi in '08

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1051/log7smallay9.jpghttp://img66.imageshack.us/img66/740...s3smallox0.jpg
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  #40  
Old 05-18-2009, 04:08 AM
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Turns out that the problem is in the bottom end on the 6-th cylinder, apparently the engine was not in such a good condition as I though (second hand old engine, guess I should have expected it). Hope to have the engine stripped down by the end of the week and up and running as soon as possible..... will keep you posted
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #41  
Old 05-21-2009, 03:18 AM
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Car is in the workshop and this Saturday the engine will be stripped down. Since the whole engine will be striped down I'm wondering if I should machine the pistons so they became like a dish (machine off squish ?? area), which will lower the compression a bit . The other and probably the most logical solution is to leave them alone .

Here is a picture of the area I'm considering to machine off .
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #42  
Old 05-21-2009, 03:29 AM
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Dont mess with the stock pistons. Aren't they silicon coated to prevent them from melting since they're aluminum? Do what roman did and have the chambers in the head mildly milled out and the inward edge smoothed up. I wished he'd rehost his pics so I could show you what I was talking about.
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1997 Mercedes E320 Turbo
Garrett T3/60-1 Turbocharger
Custom Water Intercooler Setup
352rwhp/366rwtq @ 8.6psi in '08

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1051/log7smallay9.jpghttp://img66.imageshack.us/img66/740...s3smallox0.jpg
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  #43  
Old 05-21-2009, 03:53 AM
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yes if they are Mahle pistons am sure they r silicon coated, and a thicker HG should help out in dropping the compression
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Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #44  
Old 05-22-2009, 04:13 AM
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If that's the case, I'll leave the pistons alone . Turbo E320, I seen that pic of the modified head but come to think of it, since I'll be running less then 1 bar ( 14.5 psi) of boost (0.5 daily and maybe 0.8 - 0.9 at the strip ) I wondering if there is a need to modify anything at all. Maybe just smooth out the inward edge since sharp edges help detonation .
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #45  
Old 05-22-2009, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
If that's the case, I'll leave the pistons alone . Turbo E320, I seen that pic of the modified head but come to think of it, since I'll be running less then 1 bar ( 14.5 psi) of boost (0.5 daily and maybe 0.8 - 0.9 at the strip ) I wondering if there is a need to modify anything at all. Maybe just smooth out the inward edge since sharp edges help detonation .

If you are still stock at 9.2:1 then you need not reduce your compression....just maintain a rich enough AFR under boost to prevent detonation.

Keep in mind you are not constantly under boost...
I can drive all day and as long as I don't rapidly increase my throttle opening I stay in vacuum to atmosphere on the gauge.

I've raised my boost to about .68 bar with no problem.
The install is about two years old with initial boost at .42 bar and slowly working up via the MBC.
About 6000 miles on the turbos and running stronger and stronger.

Ed A.
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http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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