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  #1  
Old 04-27-2009, 04:45 AM
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190E 3.0-12v Turbo

Finally had time to turbocharge my m103 , which took the place of the failed 2.5-16v turbo.

The setup is the following :

- standard m103 engine
- T3/T4 turbocharger with integrated wastegate
- 6x630cc Siemens Deka injectors
- throttlebody and tps from a 2.5L bmw engine
- exhaust header from 3.5L diesel mercedes
- Megasquirt I v2.2 ignition and spark control, using a 60-2 trigger wheel and hall sensor. Ignition uses 1 bosch ignitor, controlling the stock mercedes coil and distributor.
- custom intercooler

The whole project took about 3 1/2 day, started Thuesday afternoon and the car was ready Sunday(last night) around 20:30, lost almost a day at the machine shop . Car runs fine when not on WOT,to about 2/3 of the throttle. At WOT the car starts to detonate (at least sounds like detonation) over 5000 rpm, at first I though I had too much ignition advance because I started with 24 degs @ 0.5 so I started lowering the ignition advance in steps and got to 5 degs but there was still detonation. Most likely I have some ignition problem which I have to sort out. If anyone has an idea what the problem might be please chime in, my first thought is to change the sprakplugs to colder ones, and check the ignition dwell and charge time settings . The afr ratio at WOT is quite rich for the moment 10.9:1 - 11.0:1 , cruising it's ~ 16 and at idle it's 14.7:1

Here are some pictures from the setup :





















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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #2  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:55 AM
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Location: Goldcoast, Queensland, Australia
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Wow impressive to see so many used parts reused to build what sounds to be a rather powerful engine I am guessing that the 1/4 mile time you have posted is without the turbo? Are you going to get the exhaust manifold ceramic treated?

How did you know the 3.5L diesel manifold would fit, just noticed you had to drill new bolt holes i assume that means the pipes line up as a group but just need to be shifted 10mm to one side? and more importantly which engine/model does it come from cause if i can keep the cost down and sell one of my dads cars he will let me turbo his 300SE which i think uses the M103 that your playing with there? And why only a MS1, did you have that from the previous engine?

Throttle body from a BMW....ewww but probably worth it MSII seems to be alot more capable for power production, i have a 450SLC running on MSII V3 with direct driven coil packs
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  #3  
Old 04-27-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefang View Post
Wow impressive to see so many used parts reused to build what sounds to be a rather powerful engine I am guessing that the 1/4 mile time you have posted is without the turbo? Are you going to get the exhaust manifold ceramic treated?

How did you know the 3.5L diesel manifold would fit, just noticed you had to drill new bolt holes i assume that means the pipes line up as a group but just need to be shifted 10mm to one side? and more importantly which engine/model does it come from cause if i can keep the cost down and sell one of my dads cars he will let me turbo his 300SE which i think uses the M103 that your playing with there? And why only a MS1, did you have that from the previous engine?

Throttle body from a BMW....ewww but probably worth it MSII seems to be alot more capable for power production, i have a 450SLC running on MSII V3 with direct driven coil packs
Thanks . Yes, the 1/4 mile time is without the turbo, hope I'll get one with the turbo soon ,after I sort out the detonation problem . There will be no ceramic treatment for the exhaust header. The ports line up, you only have to make new holes for the studs (what I did), or you could make an adapter plate which could bolt on to the engine and then bolt the header to it (didn't have time to do it that way). I didn't know that it would fit but since a friend of mine found it for a very cheap price ~ $30 I took it to try it out... got lucky and with some modifications it fit :-) . Don't know exactly from which model it came since it I got it from the scrapyard . I used MS1 since I had it from the previous engine and when I bought it at the time there was no MS II . I plan to change to distributorless ignition later on
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #4  
Old 04-27-2009, 12:34 PM
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congrats, boy do i miss my 300 turbo charged. thanx for using the TD manifold, i know now what i should do if i ever go turbo again. any way when i first installed the kit on my car i had a similar problem but at just over 5800rpm.

has this engine's head been worked on, if its been shaved before it could be that compression is up from stock, is it a 10:1 comp engine?

i know am throwing guesses there but also do check if the turbo is throwin oil into the manifold as that will increase ur comp and weeken the spark, i also had a similar issue at the end when my rear turbo was leaking oil into the intake, but a few easy up the revs runs usually cleared the issue.

any way best of luck man, cant wait to see how the car runs, we need vids.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
congrats, boy do i miss my 300 turbo charged. thanx for using the TD manifold, i know now what i should do if i ever go turbo again. any way when i first installed the kit on my car i had a similar problem but at just over 5800rpm.

has this engine's head been worked on, if its been shaved before it could be that compression is up from stock, is it a 10:1 comp engine?

i know am throwing guesses there but also do check if the turbo is throwin oil into the manifold as that will increase ur comp and weeken the spark, i also had a similar issue at the end when my rear turbo was leaking oil into the intake, but a few easy up the revs runs usually cleared the issue.

any way best of luck man, cant wait to see how the car runs, we need vids.
Thanks Jay, to my knowledge the engine hasn't been worked on. The engine is a m103 983 which comes up as a 9.2:1 CR everywhere I checked, how ever I did a compression check when I got it and it show 11.5 bars (~ 166psi) on all cylinders (from memory). The turbo is ok and doesn't throw any oil. I'm lean toward a MS ignition issue that may come from the way it is setup i.e. MS -> bosch ignitor -> MB coil -> distributor -> spark plugs . As a last resort I could throw in two head gaskets to lower the compression ratio and see if that'll do the job . Will get videos as soon as I fix the problem and can go wot .. in the mean time here are a few more pictures, not the prettiest of setups but it's a start







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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2009, 05:43 PM
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11.5 bar/cyl compression is within range...minimum is 8.5 bars.
M103-12V is 9.2:1 CR which is almost optimum for a turbo engine.
My M103-12V is at 12.9 bar/ 190psi per cylinder.

Main things that would cause detonation are too low octane, too lean AFR or too much timing.

You indicate fairly rich AFR's which should support timing advance.

What octane gas are you using ?

Ed A.
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1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #7  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:25 PM
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Location: Goldcoast, Queensland, Australia
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Are you sure it actually knocking, and not just a bad signal from the Hall sensor. When i first installed my 36-1 trigger wheel i put the reading sensor too close to the wheel and it ended up distorting the signal when it went over 4.5k rpm and it would miss like hell and have a knocking noise to it as well.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2009, 02:52 AM
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Off topic, but is the car missing the left firewall!!!!! ????
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2009, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBYCC View Post
11.5 bar/cyl compression is within range...minimum is 8.5 bars.
M103-12V is 9.2:1 CR which is almost optimum for a turbo engine.
My M103-12V is at 12.9 bar/ 190psi per cylinder.

Main things that would cause detonation are too low octane, too lean AFR or too much timing.

You indicate fairly rich AFR's which should support timing advance.

What octane gas are you using ?

Ed A.
Ed, I'm currently using 95 octane (euro rating) and will try 98 octane when this tank is done. I pulled back the timing to 5 degrees but could still here the same noise around the same rpm. Now the question is , is it really knocking , also if it's knocking could it be from the spark plugs (using the standard heat range with resistors), or from a weak spark, say the coil doesn't have enough charge time ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefang
Are you sure it actually knocking, and not just a bad signal from the Hall sensor. When i first installed my 36-1 trigger wheel i put the reading sensor too close to the wheel and it ended up distorting the signal when it went over 4.5k rpm and it would miss like hell and have a knocking noise to it as well.
Well to be honest I'm not 100% sure but it sounds like knocking. It doesn't make sense (to me at least)....alright its knocking with 24 deg. timing advance (NA was running 29 deg.) but then I started pulling the timing and backed it to 5 deg. and the sound was still there. Also it doesn't feel like missing, although I lift off
immediately when I here the sound, also it run fine with no missing in NA form all the way to 6300 rpm (rev limit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash
Off topic, but is the car missing the left firewall!!!!! ????
Jay, all firewalls are in place none are missing . I have to tidy the engine bay, but want to get it running right first :-)
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2009, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post





Jay, all firewalls are in place none are missing . I have to tidy the engine bay, but want to get it running right first :-)
Forgot its a W201 not W124.

BTW back when my car was stock for a period of time it used to have a knock like sound every time i reached 5000 rpm. i knew it was not knock then cause i know the type of knock my car made and the rattle i was hearing was different. the rattle was quicker and un interrupted then it faded over 6000rpm. till now i have no idea what it was but car ran with that for almost a year. that went away with the turbo install.

Any way make sure the metal sheet that covers the engine mount is fixed firm and look for any metal shields that might be rattling about.

And always use 98, as 95 is sure to cause detonation, but u already know that , but factoring in that u have droped ur advance that much, i doubt iits detonation u hear.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2009, 06:29 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
Forgot its a W201 not W124.

BTW back when my car was stock for a period of time it used to have a knock like sound every time i reached 5000 rpm. i knew it was not knock then cause i know the type of knock my car made and the rattle i was hearing was different. the rattle was quicker and un interrupted then it faded over 6000rpm. till now i have no idea what it was but car ran with that for almost a year. that went away with the turbo install.

Any way make sure the metal sheet that covers the engine mount is fixed firm and look for any metal shields that might be rattling about.

And always use 98, as 95 is sure to cause detonation, but u already know that , but factoring in that u have droped ur advance that much, i doubt iits detonation u hear.
Jay, from discussing it with friends I've come to the conclusion that it is most likely pre-ignition caused by the hot spark plugs. I'm currently running H9DCO, on the 16v I run H7 and later on H6 without a problem, also found out(searched the forum) that RBYCC runs NGK BP6EFS which is equal to the Bosch H6DC . I'll get new plugs tomorrow and see what happens, hope they solve the problem .
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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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  #12  
Old 04-28-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
Jay, from discussing it with friends I've come to the conclusion that it is most likely pre-ignition caused by the hot spark plugs. I'm currently running H9DCO, on the 16v I run H7 and later on H6 without a problem, also found out(searched the forum) that RBYCC runs NGK BP6EFS which is equal to the Bosch H6DC . I'll get new plugs tomorrow and see what happens, hope they solve the problem .
wanted to ask u abt the heat range ur using, but since i have always used range 7 i assumed your using same. as they say assumption is the mother of all ****ups.

i was using bosch super+4 ranges 5/6
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2009, 08:10 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 213
check the plugs, go for a new cooler heat range like your going, just go for copper plugs, they are ment to be better st preventing detonation than these new iridium tips etc,
the plug gap may be to large, and with the increased fuel/air mix in the chamber it may be strugling to fire,or it could be from a build up on the plugs or sharp point etc,
u sound like youl get it sorted tho!
if you ease boost off alittle bit and if it stops doing it you will know its pre-ignition/detonation
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  #14  
Old 04-28-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
Ed, I'm currently using 95 octane (euro rating) and will try 98 octane when this tank is done. I pulled back the timing to 5 degrees but could still here the same noise around the same rpm. Now the question is , is it really knocking , also if it's knocking could it be from the spark plugs (using the standard heat range with resistors), or from a weak spark, say the coil doesn't have enough charge time ?


95RON=90USA
98RON=93USA

I wouldn't use anything lower then 98RON.
Try adding some octane booster with MMT..I use Lucas.

Plugs, I would use non-resistors.
Turbotechnics supplied NGK BP6EFS gapped at .030
They are non resistor and one heat range colder then stock.

I'm not familar with the MS system.

I use the stock EZL with the USA spec R16 resistor removed that gives me a 6deg advance.
Coil is also stock.
At 6psi I ran a 14.39/90mph with no traction.
Increased boost to 7psi, no track time yet but 302 torque at the rear wheels (approx 380 crank torque )

Just installed a manual boost controller to synchronize the turbos and have increased the boost to 9psi but no dyno run.

Never had any detonation even in 35C ambient...

Just can't get traction !!!
__________________

1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:27 PM
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Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
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Suffered a head gasket failure on the 2-nd cyl. Recкon it was time for it to go since I didn't change it when I bought the engine, and the engine had not been driven for a long time . Here are some pictures of the head gasket change, all that's left to do is to change the chain guide rail this Saturday and fire it up again



gasket gone on 2-nd cyl.



the old gasket


some dirt on the 3-rd cyl.


cylinder bore, no wear at all as if the engine hasn't been driven


new head gasket - Goetze

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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:27 PM
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