We recently retuned the turbo M111,this time with straight rods,split spray injectors and some decent compression.

I was hoping we may have been able to loose some of the black smoke under WOT...but even when we lean the mixtures out we still get black.
>>>>all mixtures look good.

I pulled the intake manifold off and there is the usual yellow fuel residue inside the intake ports...when i removed the OE manifold it had this also.
however,i noticed the fuel residue is very light in #1 and theres gradually more in each up to #4 which is at the end of the intake plenum.
Apparently revision can cause this effect as the flow direction of air directs it to the rear of the plenum.

Also on the exhaust manifold #1 is the most free flowing,with the pipes gradually getting longer and more windy as they go to #4.

After speaking with the tuners they say that due to combustion chamber shapes,when alot more air/fuel is added you can end up with a scenario where your mixtures are good but you are getting some unburnt components out the end.

I need more convincing.

Would it be possible that the VE changes quiet substantially from #1 to #4,and we may have a situation where one end is slightly lean,and the other is slightly rich?

any thoughts guys?


Cheers,
Paul

in my oppinion you answered your own question,
and you are smart enough now to not need our answers to these questions
i needa have a chat on the phone and say hi etc,
and theres so much i could write and i cant be bothered,
give me a ring or a txt 0274696082
from logan

I say why is it that you can control the AFR on a mitsubihi EVO 4 cyl turbo engine with dead on results?

I would say ur problem is elsewhere. best option is fit 4 bungs and read O2 on each cyl keeping same tune.
it will give u an idea of whats going on.

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

Got a mate to drive it for me yesturday,and im still getting some blue smoke.... .... .....alot less than ever before but still some.


Did compression tests with dual gauge tester... 8,10,11,8 %
Decided 35psi was too little so removed the second gauge,drilled out the restrictors and ran 100psi into all cylinders which showed 2.5 - 3psi leak on all. which is the more correct test?
I could also get the tests with the dual gauge to read upto 4% less if i moved the piston further up or down the bore(very intriguing).
Have done about 700km's on the new rings,oil is starting to go dark.have done an oil change last night but i dont think that will fix anything.


-On the dyno we checked crank case pressure and its 0 through to redline.

-There is no oil in the compressor side.

-last time i checked there was no oil on the turbine side.

-Spark plugs all look same and clean with no oil(contridicts uneven VE theory)

-Ball bearing turbo runs a 1mm restrictor

-Oil drain is 12mm

-leak down tests dont indicate head gasket or valves.

No idea where else to look.




Jay,As for the measuring the cylinders individually i have thought about this and there is not enough room to install the sensors and if there was the cost and time involved in making that happen would tip me over...unfortunatly.
I keep coming back to the Evo engine also,my setup is very similar and iv seen those engines make 400+hp all day long with only a small puff of black on initial power demand.


Yip will contact you logan!,I spoke to the guys who did the boring and they would like to take a look at the engine so will go there this week hopfully.

How many miles on the block? The idea that moving the piston down the bore would make sense if it's a high miles block and was never overbored. When the piston stops at the top there is a place where the rings have a high wear area and can create their own 'notches' (not really, but you get the idea) at the top of the bore.

Needing individual cylinder trims is not uncommon in motors at all, trimming each cylinder is going to be a new feature of MS3 and I plan to exploit this fully.

What does your intake setup look like? Even on turbo motors, it is not uncommon to see very unequal air-flows. The dump tank style that's common in high hp japanese motors is notorious for starving #1. For this reason, a few people have adopted the style of intake that audi used during group B...



A few guys I know did some CFD on both and found the latter setup provided much better cylinder filling.

I'm not sure how much this helps. but a Z car forum I frequent is the site that did the CFD's. Here's their work, maybe it can help you out a little

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=127863

The work that went into making that happen is amazing,Geez i think we built mine around the fact i needed the pipe to enter from the front,and air needs to entre the engine via these 4 runners
thanks for the link thats very interesting reading!,looks like they plan to make alot of HP with that engine.

My engine has done around 700km's
heres how my plenum looks,we are making ~385hp at the flywheel.
I can see this being redesigned so that air enters from the centre as i have the room to do this.












thanks again,
Paul

exhaust manifold,note the tight exits on #2 and especially #4 as 4 needs to clear the down pipe.

If i could do it all again i would remove the mercedes sterring box and install a rack,this would allow us to bottom mount the turbo and the manifold would be a clean run,not to mention everything else would be easier to plumb.

i may have mentioned this before, but run a pipe from your catch can to your intake before your turbo, it may let a slight bit of oil into your intake but will create a vacume for your crank case which will help with piston sealing,
or you could run an exhaust ventury system to the crank case.
apart from that in my oppinion it could only be like 3 things, valve seals, piston rings, or turbo seals.
there is no other way oil can really enter,
but we need a drive by video so we can judge, and probebly comment "man thats nothing".
p.s if it makes you feel any better my car smokes pritty bad, and so does my ute, and my bike, and even i do sometimes

Yip have done just that last week,but it doesnt cause a vaccum in the case as i have a little filter mounted on the catch tank,it just removes that unwanted oil smell that is finding its way into the cabin when at a stand still!

Spoke to the engine guys this arvo and they said they leak test theres at 120psi,so i could be on the money with using 100psi and obtaining 2.5 - 3% loss as an accurate result rather than the 35ish psi my leak tester used.

Your right though it can really only be those 3 things...rings and turbo are the most likely as valve seals were done...i suspect rings because oil is going dark fairly quickly and smelt like fuel(hence changing it last night),suspect the turbo also because the engine shakes the ****ter out of it at 2500rpm and there is slight imbalance damage from it eating filter mesh.
Listen to the engine as it passes through 2500 on deceleration(1.28) in the last part of the third run...that is the noise of the turbine heat shield...later it broke its mount we had repaired a week ealier...while i was up north last weekend i lost another bolt out of the exhaust manifold...and it was the one i tightned when we were on the dyno!.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1IL39S8o_M


will make a vid of the smoke when this weather passes!

but in the mean time it kinda goes like this:

1800 - 2500 blue
2500 - 5500 blueish black
5500 - 6300 light black
6300 limiter grey black grey black grey black


he he.So you smoke blue too?
does the C280 fume at idle(no blue but can smell oil burning)

that is some pritty bad vibration, have you tried those norlock washers? i used them on my turbo/exhaust manifold join.
maby with all those symptoms it could be either the turbo or rings,
what viscosity oil do you run? i just run 10:40 semi or full syn.

yea i can smell oil in the cabin at standstill, at this stage i feel it is from my breather set-up, which is just 2 filters on top of the engine, i need to get a better breathing system to take the fumes away from a/c intake.
yea it smokes from time to time at idle, and if its not smoking visually you can smell it instead.
although at present i have a bad idle hunt (i think i have a small intake manifold leak) from when i took it off and on last time, just need to get this sorted and the hole car will run alot better and smoke less etc.
really my only problem with my car tune at present is the idle hunt, but il be looking into this over the next week

Not sure the lock washers will help,as the stud is coming loose...tonight i might pull the turbo out and loctite the studs in,see if that helps.
I ran the engine on Penzoil mineral 15-40 initially,and have just changed it to 10 - 40 Penzoil semi synthetic.
I have got 8L of 5 - 50 mobil 1 lying around from a few years ago but not that keen to try it.

have had my share of vaccum leaks too,sounds like your hunting problems will be the dbw fighting a leak!.

Maybe im being a bit over the top with the smoke thing,but with all the effort thats gone into this im sure we could have at least had no smell from the exhaust at idle,that way i can at least warm it up without fuming the house out and everyone else down our driveway!.

Interesting about yours fuming though maybe i will never get mine to smell like it use to with the turbo setup and aftermarket ecu.

On the Supras they used to have two brackets for the turbo; one that bolted to the strut tower or someplace, and the other to the engine block to prevent vibration and shaking. Looks like you've got a direct line of sight for a support to the valve cover or even the manifold flange bolts.

Pagz, who did your intake flange? Im in auckand and am trying to find a way to mate my CF runners to the intake flanges on my M119. Ive tried using the stock manifold and cutting it down to just above the injectors but because it was a CIS-E engine the ports are badly misshapen and not one is the same. Cheers

That would likely help the issue with bolts coming loose on the exhaust manifold!,however i dont think it will help much with overall vibration or from the amplification from difference in movment of the turbo and the engine,this was an issue when we had the thin wall stainless header,but not so much now its thick wall steam pipe with all pipes welded at passing contact points,it is very very solid

Back when i had the stainless header it was suggested we link it to the rocker cover,but later decided the magnesium cover was very soft and could easily crack or wear from the vibration and movment of the turbo from the heat expansion.the other option is to bridge it to the head somewhere other than the manifold bolts but theres no fixings in the immediate area.

On the smoke topic we also did flow test the new injectors and they are boardering perfect in pattern and equal flow.

Hey,
Are you racing it?

The flange was a bit of a special made by a small company in onehunga called Burr engineering,we use them for all of our works none car related fabrication so i got a bit of a one off rate...but it wasnt cheap would hate to make 2! =)