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  #16  
Old 01-18-2002, 06:45 PM
mbz380se
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Won't a US-spec 400E walk all over a 300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9 to boot?

No blasphemy intended against the original MB super sedans.

And yes, I do drive a 380SE. I know that 300Es will eat me for breakfast under any terms.

-Sam

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  #17  
Old 01-18-2002, 07:07 PM
nick
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Given that it's 30 years younger, it would be a bit silly if it didn't, but there's still nothing like a furious 6+ liter V8 monster from the 60s.
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2002, 01:59 PM
SV
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Actually I really don't think so. A 300SEL 6.3 should be quicker off the line and a 450SEL 6.9 should be able to keep up with a 400E.
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  #19  
Old 01-19-2002, 03:10 PM
Brad 1970 6.3
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I believe the E400 uses the same powerplant as the E420 (W124) and S420 (W140). I do not have the figures for the lighter-weighted E400, however, the twin DOHC 32 valve 275hp 256 CID was coupled to a 2.82:1 rear axle through a 4speed automatic in the S420 and propelled its 4,700 lb mass from 0-60 mph in 8.1 seconds as compared with 6.3 seconds for the 300SE L6.3 and 7.3 for the 450SE L6.9 (weighing 4-4,500 lbs). With exception of the weight advantage of the E400/420, I would not expect the E400 to have any great advantage over either of the venerable historic M100s.

Now the E500 might be closer to offering a 6.3 a challenge. However, I would like to point out (as I often do), the 6.3 and 6.9 are S CLASS sedans. While the E400/500 are sedans they do enjoy the weight advantage. If we were to compare unenhanced S Class models, it would be interesting to note that an S500 (V140) only outaccelerates the 6.9 by about 2/10ths of a second and lags almost a full second behind the 6.3 with a 0-60 time of 7.2 seconds. To reach an apple-to-apple comparison, you would have to climb all the way to the S600 with its 389 hp V12 to equal the 1968 300SE L6.3's 0-60 time. The S600 also manages 0-60pmh in 6.3 seconds.

In all of this the M100 series set a "benchmark" of performance for Mercedes biggest sedans. Technology and engineering so far ahead of their time that over 30 years later, they manage performance that even new technology has a hard time outdoing on a comparative basis. (Think of, by contrast, how far computer technology has come in the same time!) Even though there are cars that are faster today, the fact remains that the M100's were the pioneers; that's the big deal- not whether they can still outgun all challengers 20-30 years their junior. The 6.3 achieved it's performance without computerized assistance in its engine, gearbox, or suspension. Many of the lessons learned from these cars are still benefitting Benz owners today. The air suspension used on the 6.3 has been refined to the state-of the-art MB Airmatic DC on the newest E-class W211 for 2002!

As always, my "Hut" is off to those brilliant lads at Mercedes Benz!

Forgive the "lecture",

Brad 6.3 003724


W211 Airmatic DC suspension Link
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  #20  
Old 01-20-2002, 06:00 AM
nick
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Excuse me?

Since when is 0-60 mph in a straight line the sole indicator of a car's performance?

If all you are looking for in a car is the ability to get from 0-60 mph quickly, surely it's much easier to buy a Mustang 5.0 LX notchback from, say, 1986 and have it slightly modified? In a straight line, on smooth tarmac, it will piss all over anything ever made by Mercedes Benz and it will have cost about the price of a new set of tyres for the Merc.

If, however, you actually have any idea about what it means to be able to "drive" quickly, I guarantee you, you will be able to outrun any 60s sedan in a decent sedan from today. Oh yes, let me just add, I mean on a real piece of road with little things we Europeans call curves, corners, bumps and cambers, not Fat-Boy Bubba's smooth, straight, 1/8 mile.
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  #21  
Old 01-21-2002, 10:49 AM
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I love the 6.3 and have been blessed with the rare opportunity to see wonderfully restored examples on the track....full out.

The 6.3 is more than a straight line stormer. Surprisingly, the air suspension of these beasts was engineered for more than just comfort. The 6.3 knows how to behave on the track.

I have witnessed these vehicles (in the hands of the right driver) keep company with the likes of modern machinery such as the CLK430 and even the base model SLK.

The "300hp" rating of the 6.3 during its' production run was enormously UNDER RATED. According to 6.3 dyno tests done 30 years ago, the 6.3's actual output was much closer to 400-425hp.

This was all before the days of ASR, ESP, ABC...
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  #22  
Old 01-21-2002, 10:54 AM
nick
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Yes, the 6.3 was more than just an ugly face with immense power. It was (and, given the right driver, probably still is) capable of embarassing many machines with greater expectations.

I posted about this earlier in the thread, here:
The 300SE L6.3; the Banker's Hot Rod that started it all!
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2002, 11:03 AM
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Ugly?........not.......Classic?
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  #24  
Old 01-21-2002, 11:09 AM
nick
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tongue in cheek.....

whew, you guys are lots of work!
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  #25  
Old 01-22-2002, 11:08 PM
Brad 1970 6.3
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As to your other assumption about "Bubbas" and straight line performance, I am German and was raised on the Autobahn and two lane roads between Frankfurt A/M and Luxembourg that would make you wizz your pants. I've regularly driven 225kmh/140mph on the Autobahn and not always in Benz.

Oder brauchst du eine Ohrfeige von mir als beweiß du nicht der einzige Europäer hier bißt?

Further, you would have to do a heck of alot more than slightly modify a 302 Mustang to be able to (as you so "scientifically" put it) "piss" on anything except itself. Also, you left yourself hanging way out in the breeze with that... "anything Benz ever made ..." nonsense. I would very much like the see the 86 Mustang Fastback, "slightly modified", that could manage a 0-100kmh lateral acceleration in 3.3 seconds (that's about 0-60 in 3.1 seconds for the "Bubbas") of the 99 Mercedes CLK GTR. Don't even try to suggest that that car can't "handle" either in the curves of the country that built it.

Besides, did you miss the point here or are you purposely just trying to be antagonistic?

The point of the thread is to note that the W109/8 6.3 was the beginning of Mercedes performance sedans; not to suggest that a 30 year old 6.3 could outaccelerate and outhandle every car ever made! Before the 6.3, nobody expected to get sportscar performance from a 4,000 lb. sedan. But I will say this much: if you think that any "decent" contemporary sedan can automatically outrun a 6.3 or 6.9, you obviously have neither owned, driven, or challenged one (at least not one in close to original running condition.)

Maybe you should find one of your almost stock '86 Mustangs and bring it to the next M100 meet and we'll see who pisses on whom.

You've got a wierd sense of humor Nick! (And you seemed like such a "nice" guy at first )

Du Witzbolt du !
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  #26  
Old 01-23-2002, 12:15 AM
roas
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Nicely put Brad!

For those of us out there who may have not done a thorough research on the 6.3, I recommend a visit to the http://m-100.org/ web site again, go over and read the Magazine articles on the 6.3 page (click up top).

If you only read one, read this one featuring Don Garlits driving and written by Brock Yates, very good! This car is Bad Ass!

And Ugly??? I don't happen to think so!
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  #27  
Old 01-23-2002, 06:40 AM
nick
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Brad

My mistake, there should have been an "almost" in there before "anything". I left that out by mistake but when's the last time you saw a CLK GTR on a public road?

Your mistake: you only talk about 0-60mph when you are rating the performance of cars. In such a case, yes, I was being a bit liberal with the term "simple" when I talked about modifications to a 302 Mustang but the fact remains that it takes very little work on a lightweight, 5-litre sled like the Mustang to create a very effective vehicle for accelerating in a straight line to a 1/8 or 1/4 mile. Some work on the engine, a modified gearbox and clutch and some dedicated tyres. You will very quickly have a very quick car. I've seen it done. I was merely replying in the terms you used and no, it won't be any good on twisty roads but you're the one who talked solely about acceleration.

I grew up near Detroit. I am from England. I have driven on the Autobahn and the autostrada. I have driven many fast cars both in a straight line and on the twisties.

I have been a fan of the 6.3 for many years. In fact, it has always been in my top 10 favourite cars but the fact remains that it has no ABS and no anti-slip. It has 1960s suspension and tyre technology. It has an ancient transmission, ancient seat design and ancient brakes.

In the real world, using normal drivers, a modern sedan (European, not American) will still be faster and safer in normal traffic on the kind of roads seen in Europe. The 6.3 will not "blow" the 400E in to the weeds as I think someone mentioned.

That doesn't mean that a 6.3 driven by someone who knows what they are doing in the dry will be left behind. Au contraire. As I already posted nearly at the beginning of this thread, a well-driven 6.3 will stay with a well-driven Ferrari Daytona on twisty roads. I think that says it all.

I simply got fed up with people not properly reading what I post (all of it) and not formulating valid arguments.

I am a nice guy and yes, I do have a wierd sense of humour.

Oh yeah, I am probably wrong about everything I just wrote, so you can correct me.

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  #28  
Old 01-23-2002, 08:17 AM
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I'm not going to "pile on" Nick, but I did want to add a few things to this thread.

First, Brad, you have a very nice car. I wish I had TWO. One to show and one for fun. But, you know, I couldn't drop the $1K+ to rebuild the F.I. pump...or go out in the garage every week to adjust the air suspension. NOT THAT I'M LAZY

I re-read all the posts on this thread and I sense that Brad absolutely loves the fact that his 6.3 is stealthy...stealth works!

But, the 6.3 is more than that. It has stealth with a purpose.

However you feel about the older MB's, I have to respect the understated power and quality from any 6.3. Yes, the "technology" may be decades old, but Mercedes has always been way ahead of the times. Remember, these cars were not built to just do short sprints to 60, 100 or any other yardstick you choose to use. They have the ability to CRUISE at phenomenal speeds for extended periods. Try cruising a 1970 Caddy at 125 for 2 hours.

I think that is what I've always been impressed by these autobahn burners. Reliable power. Absolute quality. Safety. The icing on the cake is that these cars accomplished all this without the aid of turbos, superchargers, nitrous (although I've seen a 6.3 drag car - purple - IT WAS GREAT!) or much of the computer testing/design that we have in "modern" cars.

What would a 6.3 be like "today" with some modern touches (like computerized F.I.), etc. I refer you to The Star magazine, November/December 1999 (pp.40-43). This spread was about a 300SE transplanted with a "tuned" 6.3, but normally aspirated. "Getting from 80 to 120mph took just four seconds."

Wow. I'm a believer. And I love Mercedes. ALL Mercedes.

E.P.
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  #29  
Old 01-23-2002, 08:41 AM
Michael's Avatar
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Put simply, the car was (and is) about "easy speed", just like its child the 6.9 and grandchildren 500E and E55. I exclude the 2.3-16 from this company since it is a smaller chassis, and has conspicuous aero add-ons...not quite the banker's hot rod. Ahem.

It can also be referred to as an "Upstairs" car, since it really doesn't show its prowess until well up on the speedo.

Of course I assume all of this, since I've not ever been in a 6.3...but based on the experiences I've had in its offspring, it's quite apparent the 6.3 was one helluva patriarch!
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  #30  
Old 01-23-2002, 01:30 PM
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inquiring minds want to know:

...any links to.. or can someone post pics of a 6.3 dyno test at 400-425hp?

otherwise,...this apears to sound like mere heresay ...to add to the old wives tales

-fad

PS- absolutely love the 6.3 (when nothing is wrong with them), had many great times tooling around in 2 immaculate family-owned 6.3's, they always felt stronger than my '70 455 HO Olds Cutlass

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