-fad,
Funny you should mention that H/O 455. The fastest I've been in a car is in that car. Back in the day, a friend bought one new and dropped it at an engine builder before he drove it. Took it out on the highway with me as a passenger and wound the speedo around to 6 o'clock on the dial, as we were driving up a grade on a freeway. As I recall, the MPH numbers on the speedo ran out at 4 o'clock, at 120mph. Studded snow tires in Massachusetts on a sunny winter day. Whhooo-eee! As to the 6.3, see my earlier post, page 1. As to building up a '70 vintage 6.3 or a like vintage American pony car, I'd put my money on, and in, the pony car. But we all know that that's not the point of the 6.3. BTW, if anyone out there is dying for one (a 6.3), I might be able to match-make you.

__________________
Mark Stetson
1995 E320 Wagon Moonstone Grey/Parchment 106K mi.
2007 E63 AMG Graphite/designo 75K mi

The HP listed for the 6.3 engines (modified) of 400-425 are gross ratings. This translates to approximately 320-350 DIN.

Call me a sensitive guy but I get the idea I may have upset a few people.

I'm big enough to say sorry. So, to anybody and all I may have upset, a big "sorry, I apologise". I can see how my posts could be perceived as agressive or pushy.

That wasn't my intention, sometimes I just like to engage in animated discussion. I hope I haven't offended anyone too much. I'm sure my posting style could be improved. I suppose my history with Italian cars leaves me out of water when it comes to Mercedes drivers.

So, where were we?

Oh yeah, any half-decent drivers out there want to take a standard 350 SEL 6.3 (in good condition) and an E400 to a venue where you can test the real-world performance?

I have no idea where you could safely to do that but it needs to include uphill, downhill, bumpy road, tight corners, fast sweepers, long straights, off-camber corners, other traffic, traffic lights, rain...

Oh heck, just take 'em out to the track (a curvy one, no 1/4 mile drags ok?) and see how far behind the E400 ends up, ok?

BTW, why has nobody mentioned Rich Taylor's write-up on the 6.3? That guy gives you a better impression of hot rods than anyone else I know.

nk
:p

"Eco, la moostang!!"
YR FTHFL SRVNT

About the urinary capibilities of a Mustang Mach 1 with a 429? Or even a Cobra?

"According to 6.3 dyno tests done 30 years ago, the 6.3's actual output was much closer to 400-425hp."

fad, I can only provide details as recalled by chats with gentlemen during tech sessions or other MBCA events.

If I have provided to this board (or unknowingly passed along) exaggerated claims, then I must apologize.

Lou, thanks for the additional information.

E.P.

but don't you remember how back in the 70s everybody quoted bhp numbers which don't correlate to the figures used today?

someone else already mentioned gross (was it SAE they use to use)

somebody must have put their 6.3 on a rolling road lately. please put us out of our misery.

nk aka "Loudmouth"

Hi Mark- hope all is well with you and your family and really hope you get your 500e sorted out soon. Is Guido on the case for ya? (Guido- if you're not on this- help a fellow MBshop'r & 'Eurotuner Fest 2nd Place at the car show' guy out!)

Your 1st post is a great recollection. And your HO Olds speedo recollection is true, true true. ...also had a 2-story condo of a Buick w/ a 455cid motor whose speedo did the same thing.

on the 6.3: I was fortunate to have a perfect relationship with a couple of gem 6.3's>>> aka -I got a chance to take them out and someone else ensured they were fixed and tank's full!

Although the 6.3 was infinitely more of a refined a machine (and had an un-touchable mystical aura about it...similar to a 500e?) vs. the Olds, both of these machines required diligence and caution to ensure they didn't get away from you.

...It's interesting that an impression appears to exist that 500e/e500 owner's think their cars are faster than they really are... (...ie like a person that slaps K&N's and an exhaust on?)

hmmm, ...if the 6.3's were truely dialed in at 400-425hp- one can only wonder or imagine that MB stacked the deck similarly with the 500e/e500...isn't there a rumor that the strongest M119's were selected for 500e/e500 duty? ...anyone dyno a 500e/e500 and do the math of crank HP??? Guido, Dean,Scott, Neil, Mark Herzig, Dave Hendy, AlainV, etc.- what kind of hp are you running?

...maybe these heavy hitters really do perform better than their rated hp suggests? ...in any case, included as standard equipment on these machines was APSE (A Profound Sensory Experience) - - with no defeat switch.

-fad

Mark,

I may take you up on that offer!

I have been looking for a Sunday driver and was considering the 6.3.

Has anyone checked out this car?http://www.collectorcartraderonline.com/addetail.html?19152890

$8,000 seems LOW, but the ad claims mint like car.

I have my eye on 2 others, more like 13-14k.

++db

PS. Due to the current advertising climate this post may contain misspelled words. :-)

Dave,

Just glancing at the 6.3 listed at CollectorCar, I noticed that the rear end is sitting way up. It probably still needs at least a rear valve. Just a guess, but the owner probably bought the car with the idea of a limited figure in mind for restoration and repairs. For those of us who own 6.3, 6.9, or 600 cars, we know that they are alot like an expensive high-maintenance "other woman" that seems to always have her hand in our pocket.

According to at least one MB owners website, there are less than 300 "registered"/licensed 6.3's on the roads worldwide today. Yet there always seem to be at least a dozen "floating" around on Ebay and CollectorCar. My personal experience is that a number of 6.3 owners sucumb to the "lure" and lore of the venerable M100 and then are hit full in the face with the realities.
As very complex machines that are over 30 years old, there is always something asking for attention. A number of the unaware are quick to try to unload once they come to terms with this. At the risk of error, I interpret the "...over $4,500 invested, first $8,000 takes it!" as a good indication.

BTW: So that you don't run into the same thing, I recommend that anyone considering the 6.3 (especially as a daily driver) contemplate these scenarios in advance. Are you qualified/willing to become conversant with and repair the 6.3's suspension, driveline, electrical, etc. yourself? (Both of my local MB Dealers act as if the 6.3 never existed and even my favorite ******** is "afraid" of it; I have to do almost all the work myself.)
If not, are there any other 6.3 owners in your area; where do they take theirs? Would you be willing to potentially wait patiently while your car sits awaiting special order parts or repairs?

I am dedicated to the (nearly extinct) 6.3 species. My goal is to try to preserve at least one healthy speciment for posterity. I take it to carshows and for weekend "romps" to keep everything running. As Nick pointed out earlier, there are other fast and responsive cars (like the E500 or S600 etc.) even in the MB line-up that are younger and less current maintenance.
However... the 6.3 is unmatched in its rightful place in MB history. Read any definative MB book and you can almost guarantee a glowing inclusion of the famous 6.3.

Not only that, but contrary to what you have heard...
they're really FUN to drive. There's nothing like leaving other drivers with their Detroit muscle or Japanamotion with their pants down and red-faced at the stop-light especially after they wrote your "Grandpa-car" off as no serious threat!

I would contact the owner and ask him to E-mail you more pics (including interior, trunk, engine, and close-ups if youcan get it).

Best wishes,

Brad 1970 6.3

Hey Brad

As the 6.3 is geared- and designed-for cruising at speeds which are unrealistic in America today (and, to be honest, most other countries too), are there any options for fitting a more suitable final ratio so you can really knock the socks off kids at the traffic lights?

Imagine if you got the 0-60 down in to the low 5s.....

I suddenly remembered a story you may enjoy. Apologies if this is too long or too off-topic.

From 1971 to sometime in the mid-80s, my parents owned a 1969 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 convertible with the 455ci Red Rocket engine complete with accelerator and brake pedals which were bigger than some Japanese import cars of the day. Ok not really, but they really were huge pedals. The engine was rated at 365@4600, complete with ultra-stone-age double barrel carb.

The car was (is?) a real flexi-flyer, with all the torsional rigidity of hot spaghetti. Add to this the venerable slush-O-matique tranny, 300 turns lock to lock steering, drum brakes off the Titanic and no LSD, and you have a real recipe for disaster (I once used the car in a snowy parking lot to demonstrate to my brother the problem with trying to power-slide an open diff car. He threw up.).

However, one day the distributor cap developed a crack or similar which meant the car idled like a Top Fuel dragster, the entire body rocking side to side as the engine lurched from missed cylinder to missed cylinder. Revving the engine slightly improved things. The overall effect to onlookers was of a real Q-car, something which looked like it had been developed purely to win pink slips.

Anyways (in attempt to cut this less long, if not actually short), this day (The Day of the Dizzy) I'm in the passenger seat and my Dad is driving. He's a typical Dad: clothes that clearly mark him out as a practical, if slightly dated, kind of guy. He's wearing a cap, too, just to round off the "I'm some kid's old man" look.

We're sitting at the red lights in 'The Rockabilly Special', as it was known that day when who should slide up next to us but some spotty kid in his hot rod. I can't remember but it was something along the lines of a modded '78 Chevy Nova SS or similar. Clearly, this thing could leave most cars in the dust.

This kid starts giving us the old, "So, you think your're man enough, then?" look when he notices the rough idle and the rocking car. He turned his head back to the straight ahead position, the lights changed and he just sat there too worried about being embarrassed by some old geezer.

I tell you, our car looked and felt that much like a hot rod that day....

those were the days......

nk

I met one of those Delmonts, but a four door, and scared it off pretty much the same way. My mother had a 1969 Mercury Marquis with a 429cid and a 650 cfm two barrel (big hole in the top of the motor.) The back right fender had rust holes in it so when I lit up that tire, which could happen real easy, it would fill the car with smoke. I little before the event my mother had some muffler work done but it was hung a little low. I was out one night with some friends and was driving down a dirt road. I drove over a small mound of dirt that caught the muffler and slid it off the Y pipe and rumble rumble. Not a big deal, one of the guys knew a guy working in a garage on the other side of town, all we had to do was get the car up a little and push the muffler back on. But that un-corked 429 sounded real nice. On our way through town we stopped at a red light next to a similar bunch. I knew his 455 beat my 429, but I revved the 429 up a couple of times and when the light turned green he sheepishly turned. Chicken.

Those were the days. And If you tell my mother I’ll deny it

nice.

can't beat a good ole' beater.

Now an unmuffled 6.3 at 5000rpm, I wouldn't mind that sound!

Imagine the looks on peoples' faces if you rumbled through some hick little 'southrun' town in a Muhr-say-deez Bayanz 350SEL 6.3 with a pair of straight throughs.....

"You ain't frum 'roun' hea, ah ya, bowah?"

Where's the best place for a CB antenna on a 6.3? Would it have to be a long whip curved over from the back bumper to the front, or one of those straight up whips with a 'coon's tail at the end?

Does MB do a rifle rack for the back window?

nk

Brad and Mark,

I am looking for the 'right' 6.3.

I may be the person Brad is talking about, attracted to the lore of the beast.

I read somewhere that a 13-15k example may be a better long term investment than an 8k tired car that requires more than I may be willing to give it.

++db

I know someone who has owned two for a long time. He sold one, and the other is in storage. He mentioned he might sell it. I'll check to see if he's serious.

__________________
Mark Stetson
1995 E320 Wagon Moonstone Grey/Parchment 106K mi.
2007 E63 AMG Graphite/designo 75K mi

Nick,

From what I hear, the problem with changing the rear axle ratio is the tremendous torque that the 300SE L 6.3 has. The weather was nice here in Virginia today, so I decided to change the differential oil and take her for a little trip 'round the proverbial block. I decided to do a couple of line starts.

Even with A traction-rated 235/60 Dunlop Qualifier GTs on the rear rims, I did such a tire burn that she tried to pull sideways in second gear at 30mph! I heard that Neil at Star Motors in NY (a 6.3, 6.9, 600 specialty shop) put a gear from a 280S ? in a 6.3 and all it would do is burn the tires down (even with 4000+ lbs bearing down on the tires!). You would probably have to cut the wheel wells and run 275/35 slicks like Mickey T's to get enough grip! (Then the axle or u-joints would probably go next!)

Like you said, though, unless you run the strip or track at MBCA or M100 meets, the acceleration times and top speeds are largely academic. I do have a nice set of "country 4-lanes" our here though were I do get to "test" the performance regularly; at least to my satisfaction. The roads are wide, fairly flat and straight, and well maintained.

I dusted my 300SD (w126) off and took it out for a spin after the 6.3 today as well. The W126 has always been a "baby" of mine. To my mind, it's as smooth and quiet as a Seville. The double-firewall design and hefty insulation make it nice and quiet.

But...

I gotta tell you guys... At 80mph on the same winding country 2-lane, the air suspensioned 6.3 wins hands-down! After pushing both cars through the same road contours and turns, the 6.3 felt like I was going half the speed; while the W126 let me know in no uncertain terms that I was "pushing it". Oh and yes, I had the front and rear suspension on the W126 completely professionally rebuilt about 1,500 miles ago by a certified MB shop; so it's in perfect condition.

Thought you might might find it an interesting "observation".

Oh, BTW... about the "classic rumble"
I responded to a neighbors starting his Chevy panel van (with 305 and glass-packs) every morning at 5AM and reving to warm it up, by removing my "Hush" Thrush muffler completely and inserting a pc. of 2 1/2 straight pipe! Suprisingly, it had a nice deep tuned sound. Oh, did I forget to mention? It was a 67 Caddy with a 429 4bbl with 345 hp (by the old method) and an 11.45:1 compression. If it hadn't been for the annual inspection, I could have left it that way. Even the cops said nothing.

I had a 69 Vette pull up to the Caddy and he "felt" the rumble of my "straight" exhaust and revved at the light but when I openned the 4bbl a couple of times the 14" Cal-Custom air breather let that Rochester 4bbl make that trademark "howling" sound. Together with the roar from the exhaust, the guy decided I was probably not all "stock" . After our revving contest, just waved and slowly pulled away.

Thanks for reminding me of a pleasant memory.

Brad 1970 6.3