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  #31  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:15 PM
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you will be able to stick with the lpg mixer if you wanted, but would just have to run alot less hp, because getting towards the combustion conditions you are wanting to make high hp from high boost everything in the fuel mixes accross all cylinders and /ignition timing needs to be PERFECT.

i look foward to hearing what your lpg guy says, just ask him what he thinks the limit of the mixer is, you may find you will be happy with what it can produce,

High hp numbers can start to become a large pain in the ass tho, as it starts to stress all the rest of the components in the drive line, so you will find once you get the engine sorted there will just be something else which needs to be changed aswell to cope, and so on and so on,
plus with a road car with high hp it is really impractical like my car by the time you get into a higher gear like 3rd-4th to really let the power down you end up going so fast in such a short time its just rediculus, u end up with a track car really
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  #32  
Old 02-07-2010, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAD300 View Post
After reading a pretty concise doc' on the 3 fuels of choice, gas, LPG or LPI, the injection is the superior one although obviously costly. This eliminates the Mixer AFR/tune probs totally by ECU (stand alone I would guess?) controlling each individual cylinder as in EFI

You guys have hinted to & imo right on the button concerning the Mixer being nothing but a pain in the ass. It is difficult to tune & requires re-tuning periodically. Is uneconomical. Unreliable. Damn dnagerous to engine from what I have read. Unless this LPG installer guru can suggest something wonderful to me. Eric, I would be really hesitant to simply try & fix the inlet mani. Sure it makes sense & may help but won't rectify the prob I don't think? Again, right now I believe the mixer shouldn't have been used in the first place the way it is set up. Running on straight LPG via mixer affords slow start ups & dangerous backfiring. EFI fixes this so you don't need dual fuel.

Also, although these cars do orig' have an ECU, it is a very basic one that does little more than control cold-start really. Has no effect on AFR or timing etc from what I read also so, it can't be manipulated as in an EFI set up which utilises the ECU with proper complex sensors such as o2 exhaust sensor & knock sensor as with my 88' Mazda 323 Turbo.

I will be discussing this LPG dilemma with installer hopefully Monday.

Thanks for your help it is priceless! I will let you know how I go on Monday

Here's the article btw: a get-to-the-point doc' on LPI: http://www.lpgli.com/features.html

I've found this a good explanation of the 3 different fuel delivering methods:
Not rocket science but a simple comparison of fuel delivery systems. Perhaps you guys know it in more detail? Along with your points, it helps my to decide whether it's worth the hassle to try with Mixer feed:

Here are a few other informative articles/doc's with good explanations:

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Turbo.html

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/which_conversion.html

http://www.amershamauto.com/pages/how_lpg_works.htm
I never said the mixer was bad, only the intake manifold. I lived with a mechanical LPG system for a few years and loved it. But that system was using a wet flow intake manifold. And it was not a dual fuel system either. LPG only all the way baby and it ran great! I only sold it to raise the money to get the Bricklin in my sig. If you could have the intake manifold wet flowed after you smooth and radius the center two runners, you could be sure of the evenness of the system.

Yes, these cars do originally have an ECU, and yes, it is a very basic system but it does control cold-starts by adding fuel, and controls AFRs and timing etc. the rest of the time and it does use an O2 sensor and it can be manipulated as in any other EFI set up that utilizes an ECU with proper sensors. Read the sticky on this very topic at the top of the page.
(Or here: Tuning with CIS)
The only thing we are missing is a knock sensor but I'm fine with that as it's been shown many times how they will misread sounds that aren't even detonation and then pull timing when they don't need to.

Thanks for the links!
Regards, Eric
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
85 Volvo 744 TD "Bolbo1"
90 Volvo 745 T "Bolbo2"
93 Volvo 945 T "Bolbo5"
85 Dodge F.B. tow rig "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
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74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.

Last edited by 400Eric; 02-07-2010 at 02:40 AM.
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  #33  
Old 02-07-2010, 04:52 PM
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I think I get the point with the manifold now. I'd never looked into this prior.

I just read this article concerning wet/dry manifolds. Bit basic but that's sometimes the best way to learn

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/gm-tech/manifold-injection.pdf

Actually, this article made more sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous

edit:

spoke with LPG gut this morning, he doesn't think the manifold has anything much to do with prob @ this stage. It is the fact LPG delivery is via only 1 convertor (vaporiser). It would have leaned out by not enough fuel. He has had success with mixers & says the mixing is all done within mixer ahead of throttle body so, it can't unmix, so to speak once in the inlet manifold.

If he adds a 2nd convertor it should have plenty for 400rwhp. This is what I am chasing. The car will only be pushed hard occassionly but, due to all the bleedin' money/timer & bottom end parts used, it'd wanna make good figures for me to accept all this fun (not)

I am taking engine to my builder also today.

Cheers again guys!
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Last edited by BAD300; 02-07-2010 at 07:22 PM.
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:27 AM
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We never said it would un-mix, just that the intake charge is heavier when there is fuel in it so it can't make the sudden changes in direction that air alone can which is why the trouble was in the center two cylinders because their runners are the ones that have the sharpest, most sudden turn to make into their entries. The fact that the trouble is in those center two cylinders is the smoking gun.
Regards, Eric
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
85 Volvo 744 TD "Bolbo1"
90 Volvo 745 T "Bolbo2"
93 Volvo 945 T "Bolbo5"
85 Dodge F.B. tow rig "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #35  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:40 AM
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yea get a second vaporiser and a good tune on a dyno and she should be good to go!
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:48 AM
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maybe that's where the misunderstanding is Eric. The trouble was with no:3 & no:6 pistons. Not 3 & 4. I can understand the middle piston from what you are saying. If you hadn't of pointed that out, I would be none the wiser. But due to one of the end pistons suffering? It's too far from mixer to be the culprit.

Anyway, I'm on the right track & I owe it to you guys for your suggestions & quick clueing up. THANKS!
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2010, 04:07 AM
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Pulled engine out & it's @ rebuilders now.

Also, I spoke to Auto trans specialist today concerning modding the torque convertor into a stall convertor so to make it more drivable with the turbo. I'm dropping it off later in the week so he can pull it apart & see the changes he can make. He hasn't done a Merc before so may only be able to go mild say, 1750rpm? Still would be better than stock idle. I was wanting 2500 however. Oh well.

However, he's not to keen on the stock auto. Although seller stated he beefed it up a while back, only receipt I have as for an auto trans purchase, not any work done. So he's probably full a crap like with the engine?

What I would appreciate knowing concerning auto is what is a good upgrade/swap for my engine? A V8 trans?

Thanks guys!
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Last edited by BAD300; 02-09-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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  #38  
Old 02-10-2010, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAD300 View Post
Pulled engine out & it's @ rebuilders now.

Also, I spoke to Auto trans specialist today concerning modding the torque convertor into a stall convertor so to make it more drivable with the turbo. I'm dropping it off later in the week so he can pull it apart & see the changes he can make. He hasn't done a Merc before so may only be able to go mild say, 1750rpm? Still would be better than stock idle. I was wanting 2500 however. Oh well.

However, he's not to keen on the stock auto. Although seller stated he beefed it up a while back, only receipt I have as for an auto trans purchase, not any work done. So he's probably full a crap like with the engine?

What I would appreciate knowing concerning auto is what is a good upgrade/swap for my engine? A V8 trans?

Thanks guys!
Do you have pics of the current exhaust manifold, you mentiond something about using the stock headers ?
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  #39  
Old 02-10-2010, 06:05 AM
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Verdict from builder...........absolutely shagged! The engine has seen it's last mileage I'm afraid Block surface is so uneven no wonder head gasket kept blowing. Cylinder bores were buggered. Heaps of piston slack.

The light @ end of the tunnel though. I spoke to Merc' spares dealer/Importer here. The one I sourced the reco' head from. He has a 90' model 3.0L with just 100,000kms (60,000miles) on it! It's currently in a Merc being pulled apart fopr spares. He wanted $1500 for it (that's with taking back the reco head again) but under the condition he got to install it. $1000 for install including I guess injectors, lines, harness etc for petrol? Plus, cost of anything they found they had to replace would be extra.

However, when I mentioned more clearly that he would be dealing with LPG & a turbo, & I didn't thing he would be able to get it sorted, he went quiet for couple of secs then said, you can have the engine for $1000 change over. Long motor without accessories How cool is that! Now I have a good low klm engine to start with properly & reliably. So rapped!

I know EFI is the bees knees. Just the $$$$ & effort down here to get it. I'll talk to LPG guy again & see if he can source me some starter injector kit & then I'll be better informed. There's just other stuff I need to do for engineers cert' already.

Will think on this thoroughly though over next few days.
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  #40  
Old 02-10-2010, 06:55 AM
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My advise then is to get the long block with the intake manifold, that way u get to install and LPG inj kit. What ever you chose to do, i say stay away from wet manifold setups (unless its for an extra injector setup like RBCY's turbo setup on this forum)
ie: it supplements the total amount of fuel, and not the primary way of serving the fuel needed.

If u recall old turbo setups, back in the early days of turbo charging, most started with carb suck thru setups, and most just gave up on it back then for lack of control on proper fueling.
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  #41  
Old 02-11-2010, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreto View Post
Do you have pics of the current exhaust manifold, you mentiond something about using the stock headers ?
My browser is preventing me uploading pics @ moment Joreto but it's the original twin set up but with welded curved pipe pointing upwards that sits the turbo exhaust manifold flange

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
If u recall old turbo setups, back in the early days of turbo charging, most started with carb suck thru setups, and most just gave up on it back then for lack of control on proper fueling.
Jay, the mixer set ups that are performed here in AUS are not the older style you are referring to. Gas Research is more advanced than what I have seen in US. The guy who I am getting to do instal/tune holds current AUS fastest LPG quarter mile time using the mixer set up. 9 sec runs! What gets neglected by installers are stuff like feed line diameter; convertor capacity/number & of course proper tuning. If you can supply enough LPG, preventing lean-out, it s reliable.

Don't get me wrong I'm not comparing it to LPI set up but, it can work if a specialist does it using current technology. Also, using primer to alleviate cold start/back fire probs; seperate oil filter between sump oil line & turbo to protect turbo seal damage. This is extent this LPG guy goes to with installations.

I just can't jusify the extra $5k needed for injection set up & Stand Alone EMS necessary bto set up injection system

Also, car needs few other important things to pass engineers cert' here along with, ext system improvement; custom ext manifold I'm chasing & stall convertor mod, in order to significantly lower turbo lag as it has auto trans. Turbo compressor size/condition needs to be looked @. This & fact I need car back on road sooner than later.
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Last edited by BAD300; 02-12-2010 at 03:47 AM.
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2010, 02:56 AM
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Don't forget the piston oil squirters and windage tray from a M104.
Regards, Eric
__________________
89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
85 Volvo 744 TD "Bolbo1"
90 Volvo 745 T "Bolbo2"
93 Volvo 945 T "Bolbo5"
85 Dodge F.B. tow rig "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2010, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
Don't forget the piston oil squirters and windage tray from a M104.
Regards, Eric
Thanks Eric. I'll need to source one though. I can't push it too much with this salvage yard guy as he is giving me the whole engine, acc' & all now with Inlet Mani' to help me out Originally he was only supplying the engine minus accessories until I told him the old engine sat/was abused to such an extent I don't trust anything on it @ this stage. He's delivering it for extra $100 too.

I'll ask him when he rings me next week for organising delivery.

Btw, engine was pulled out of salvage Merc today

Also, the turbo is OK. Got it looked over by an old-schooler who knows he's stuff. He suggests it will make a respectable 450hp. it has a bit of wear but not terminal @ this stage. Considering I am using stock donor engine now, I may keep boost to 10psi, maybe 12. Have it with low & high boost perhaps. Say 6psi & 10-12? I don't want to punish this engine that is such a blessing in disguise considering the fate of the other one.
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Last edited by BAD300; 02-12-2010 at 04:01 AM.
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  #44  
Old 02-13-2010, 09:12 PM
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Looking for 400Eric

Quote:
Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
We never said it would un-mix, just that the intake charge is heavier when there is fuel in it so it can't make the sudden changes in direction that air alone can which is why the trouble was in the center two cylinders because their runners are the ones that have the sharpest, most sudden turn to make into their entries. The fact that the trouble is in those center two cylinders is the smoking gun.
Regards, Eric
Sorry but this is the only way I know to get in touch with 400Eric. I have tried Pming you and the thread you had on a 400e bogging down has also vanished. I had it bookmarked and now it comes up as an invalid thread.

I can not Pm you so Email me at mazda626lxa@yahoo.com please I need your help
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  #45  
Old 02-14-2010, 04:38 AM
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i have a spare set of oil squirters and oil windage tray, so if your guy cant supply you with them we could sort something out,
altho they do require some work and drilling into the oil gallery of the block to get to fit, it isnt hard, i had to do it to one of my m104 blocks that for some reason didnt come with oil squirters.
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