That is good news. Thanks David. -CTH

__________________
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http://www.111lakeside.com/

It looks like a 1/4 or 3/8 thick adaptor plate would work to mate the 420G to the M119 block. A 1/4 inch thick adaptor would have to be steel and a 3/8 plate could be aluminum but would need a pocket machined into it for the fly wheel. Personally I prefer the thicker plate as there would be more thread engagement.

There are a couple of things that need to be addressed;

The MB ring gear is smaller than the BMW ring gear by a few teeth, so in order to use the starter mounting holes in the trans, a BMW ring gear will need to be used. I want to know how many teeth are on the BMW starter pinion. If it is the same as the MB pinion, then I can use the MB starter I have for a mock up, if not, then I will need to get a BMW starter.

The 420G does not complement the M119 crank position sensor location at all. I think the easiest thing to do would be to move it to the top of the trans and re-index the flywheel to compensate for the new location. I have no idea if there is room in the car for the sensor on the top of the trans though. Another alternative would be to see if a shorter pick up could be sourced that could fit inside the bell housing.

Re: Adapter Plate Thickness

If the M119 has a rear main seal holder similar to the M116/117 engines, the rear face of the crank flange (the flywheel surface) is approx. 20-22 mm behind the rear face of the block. A 3/8" thick plate (9.5mm) would be well forward of the flange/flywheel line. Is the anticipated flywheel stepped forward? Most flywheels have either a flat forward face, or are stepped aft.

The 1/4 inch min thickness for the plate results in the start of the input shaft spines section being .125 from the face of the pilot bearing if it were flush with the face of the crank, which leaves aprox .875 of input shaft pilot bearing depth in the crank. Keeping in mind that a pilot bearing adaptor can be made to put the bearing anywhere, the additional .125 of plate thickness (to get 3/8) is not a big deal, but the plate will need to be machined to allow the back of the flywheel room.

The back of the flywheel will be the same as the MB flex plate and will protrude out to the clutch disk. I will have to check on some mass specks in order to see where the flywheel total mass number should be. If the total mass is too high, then I will remove some material from the back of the flywheel to reduce weight, but I am thinking that thicker is what it will have to be, and that may require the trans to be set back by its self.

CTH has some 117 flywheels so we should have an idea of mass to start with.

Does that answer your concern?

"Does that answer your concern?"

Actually, no! I'm a bit puzzled.

My comment was directed to your suggestion that a plate of 3/8" thickness would interfere with the front side of the flywheel. If the forward plane of the flywheel is in line with the back face of the crank flange, it will be approx. 20-22mm aft of the back of the block. If the adapter plate, bolted to the back of the block is 9.5mm thick, there will be a clearance of 11.5-13.5mm between the aft face of the plate and the forward plane of the flywheel. What machining of the plate would be required for flywheel clearance when a clearance already exists?

Perhaps there is also a bit of confusion in terminology. I'm using fore and aft to refer to the front of the engine (and vehicle) and the back of the engine, and to all other components as well, when installed. Hence, the front of the flywheel is that side that faces forward in the vehicle, and is closest to the back of the engine block.

The starter ring gear centerline in on the same plane as the end of the crank (plus half the thickness of the flex plate web), therefore the ring gear hangs over on each side of the flex plate (fore and aft of the end of the crank).

I want to have around .125 between the farthest forward part of the flywheel and the plate. Any relief that would be required would be minor but necessary, parts move around quite a bit and it is better to have extra clearance than not enough.

Let us say that the forward plane of the ring gear is 3-4mm forward of the plane of the crank flange (use 4), that the space between the back of the block and the plane of the crank flange is 20mm, and that the adapter plate is 9.5mm thick. 20-(9.5+4)=6.5mm clearance between the ring gear and the adapter. It really is my sincere belief that there will not be a need to cut a pocket in the adapter.

For reference, consider that the intermediate plate (the OEM adapter plate) which was used on M116/117 iron block engines, and on one particular combination of aluminum block with a 722.0 trans, is 1/2" thick in the area of the ring gear, with (obviously) no interference.

Thank you for your concerns. I would be happy to make a plate and flywheel to your specks if you desire them.

You are correct regarding the offsets. I looked at my notes again and saw that the 1/4 and 3/8 plates were for a different trans / flywheel set up. This project has been pulled in several different directions lol...

I just went and put the M119 block and 420G together, and with the spline .125 from the crank, the gap is just a touch past .375 so using a .500 think plate (with or without machining) would be where I would go given the pilot bearing will allow it.

I have not looked at this project in a long time, still do not think the 420G is worth playing with but that is what I have been asked to do lol..

Well, I shot off an email earlier to Dave and now I look like a fool. I had asked about this thread thinking that there were still plans to make bells for multiple engines, and now it looks like a very select number of V8s only.

I see that Ron quit responding at some point, so I assume that just leaves me here asking about a V12 option. Certainly that (even if I include the fellow in Australia I was talking to - making two) is too small a market to bother with.

At least with the V8s there will continue to be people messing with them.
I wish you all luck with this - but I don't think you will need it.
After all, anything 8 cylinders or less is easy!

I'm not sure what email address I have on this sight.... I don't check it much if it is the one I am thinking of, I will have to check.. If I don't respond to it, its because the address is no longer used.

The Real Guy behind all of this is CTH... He is the one pushing to get something going, I would recommend you contact him regarding any applications..

He was referred to a flywheel manufacturer that might possibly be able / willing to produce a short run of flywheels a lot cheaper than I could..

My understanding is he, CTH, plans on using standard aftermarket bell housings such as those for a Small Block Chevy, and use an adaptor plate to mate the bell to the block..

I do not recall if the V12 bolt pattern is the same as the M119, or what there is available in regards to a manual trans fly wheel for a V12.. The MB flywheels are pretty small for the power so it will take quite a clutch to hold and the SBC bell will enclose a flywheel that will handle a 12 inch disk (the MB flywheel is only 12 inches total as a reference).

The problem we found with casting a bell housing is everyone wanted a different trans and there were not enough people who wanted the same thing to make it cost effective.. Using a standard bell that you can get from any speed shop will greatly reduce the cost and you can even get the added safety of a scatter shield if you get a steel one..

Id say don't give up yet, contact CTH and see what you can work out..

Looks like the M120 crank bolt pattern in the back is the same as the M117/119. So a flywheel could be made to fit all three engines. The bellhousing bolt pattern is very different though, but the auto trans on the M120 comes with a detacheable bellhousing if I remember well. so an adaptor plate in the back to adapt a trans like a T5 for ex. would be feasible. throuw out bearing could be hydraulic. You may need a double clutch though.

We looked at that and the 722. bells for the M119 were WAY TOO DEEP with out any trans adaptor plate.. I think you can get a Tramec (spelling?) with different input shaft lengths, but it would have to be long, or the flywheel would have to stick out quite a bit, (more than I am comfortable with).. That plan was abandoned with the M119..

Now I do have a bell housing that CTH sent me from a 722 from a CLK (all I have in my notes) that is prefect to use as a manual bell housing and is why I thought it would be great for a M117/119, but the torque converters on the 119 must be huge..

The v12 wasn't on my plate because I don't own one. My goal is to construct a custom engine adapter that has either a bmw, Chevy or ford bell pattern. That makes things very simple. An equally simple custom flywheel that has would take a corresponding off the shelf clutch.

A custom bell is not necessary nor is it very interesting. For the m100 and m119, thereally is plenty of work to do to get a reasonable flywheel together that can handle the three variety of the ignition timing hardware required. Going with the bell from a getrag 265 or s420 means a small flywheel like Dave said and it means beefing up the clutch. Thankfully that is easy (one you have a flywheel).

Current status is that we know what not to do and we know who's going to make the flywheel. I need to get them some measurements, they need to give me a quote, and then it's a matter of cutting them a check.

-cth

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

I did read that you had a change of email address, but I had assumed that it was corrected. The email was not super important, it was just explaining my desires as to what I was looking for.

CTH did in fact email me about this, encouraging me not to simply wash my hands of it.

I do prefer the simplicity of a mid-plate rather than a total custom bell housing if I am going to attempt things. I had thought that this was going to be a case of using a bell that someone else had done the majority of the measuring and the actual production, just kick in some sample parts and a wad of cash. It was appealing to hear about a custom cast bell. If I have to go the route of the mid-plate I only need someone to measure it for me as I can have it laser cut from a CAD drawing. I do not trust myself to measure it right, though. This might mean bringing my extra motor to Minneapolis, as no one here seems to be able to run a CMM. First I am trying to get an in-law to do it, though. He is a mechanical draftsman.

I have not compared the bell patterns, but from what I read earlier in this thread the M119 is different from the M120, but the M113 might be the same as the M120. The conversation had dropped off after a maybe.

I am not super concerned with a clutch. If I have to go to something a little more aggressive, so be it - but I doubt I will. I think that the clutch will do better than most people think. Plus if I cook it, I can upgrade. There is that small matter of resurfacing a new flywheel...

I imagine that I will eventually pick up a bell for the T56 and make a mid-plate. If I go this route, I will cut out several so that I can help out some others and have a spare or three. After all, if it all goes well, I may do this more than once.

That would be good, I have no problem with piggy-backing on someone else's flywheel order. Was everyone thinking of using the factory MB ring gear, getting teeth cut into the new flywheel, or something else? I was thinking of using the factory MB ring gear bolted to a new center.
The later (722.6?) transmission had a removable converter housing, but I have the earlier (722.3?) transmission with the integral case. I will likely use a GM bell on the T56 and a mid-plate from engine to GM bell.
I plan on using a hydraulic throw-out.

Yes, I think that the GM bell for the Tremec makes more sense than the MB bell does at this point. Bonus - they are easier for me to get!

I do not blame you for not taking a large interest in something that in no way helps you - I am not enthusiastic about old Chevrolet small blocks for the same reason. Don't have one, don't care.
In theory I like offering options to people for the transmissions, but I would not do terribly out of my way to make that happen. If I wind up doing this for me I will offer it to other people as "take it or leave it". I cannot imagine using a BMW transmission, but maybe elsewhere they are easy to get.
I will watch for the flywheel information, though.

Like I said before, I wish you all luck. I think when it comes down to it I will be going on my own for this one, though. I hope if I am successful some other people appreciate my efforts and do the same combination.

Keep on keeping on, everyone!

With all the bell housing gyrations going around in this and other threads, has anyone investigated redrilling a drawn steel "blow proof" housing? There has to be one that has the front to rear correct spacing to make it work.

The MB pattern could be drilled on the outer flange, if any bolts are inside the flange, a tube could be welded through the bell to allow attachment.

Going farther, an aftermarket flywheel maker should be able to drill a FW to a MB pattern.

I'm thinking modify aftermarket parts rather than modifying / adapting MB to fit aftermarket parts.