Hey Nick, I don't agree that the driveshafts brake so easily, I do power takeoffs quite often and have yet to brake the driveshaft. Also I'm running the stock dual pump setup and have had no fuel problem running 1.4 bars on the 2.5-16v, currently I'm running 6x630 cc injectors @ 0.5 bar boost (~ 7.25 psi) and also have no fuel problem (base fuel pressure is 43.5psi) , will see how the pumps handle 1 bar, but I read that they are good to around 450 crank hp. However, I agree that putting the power to the ground is very difficult, I get a lot of wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear and some times I can get wheel spin even in 3-rd gear and that's only on 0.5 bar of boost.

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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)

Putting power to the ground is what it is all about !!

Wheel spin is actually your "friend" when you launch as it's the "bite" that breaks things..

A manual transmission Mercedes that is able to "launch" and "bite" without damage is rare.

The chassis is just not designed for it..

No different then any Corvette ever made..from the Z06 to the ZR1..
Launch with a manual and you get transverse spring windup which results in incredible wheel hop and eventually something breaks !!.

Typically a chassis to that can go fast around corners cannot launch without potential problem.

Consider why most USA drag cars use an old two speed Chevy Powerglide automatic transmission...or why high stall speeds are used in torque converters..
The auto transmission/torque converter is in essence a "shock absorber" in the drive train.
The picture I posted of my orange Dodge superstocker is a Torqueflite transmission car with 600HP +

It ran a 5:12 rear gear in a 9" Dana truck housing.
Straight up factory race car, illegal for street use.
Yet with "bite" it would launch lifting at least one wheel off of the ground by about one foot !!!
And that was only possible running 11" M&H wrinkle wall slicks, screwed to the rims so they wouldn't spin off, and with 6psi of air in them...
Nothing in the drive train ever broke...built to be bullet proof

Of Course leaf springs are much more conducive to "launch" then coil springs..

I'm building the C124 widebody for two reasons..
First because I love NickGed's car and second to get better traction...

Kumho Ecsta rubber on wide rims = traction = go fast... !!!

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

I've been giving a great deal of thought why so many on their quest for mega power from a M103/M104 tend to break more then they should.

I'm concluding that it comes down to a basic lack of knowledge of the theory behind the internal combustion engine.

If you grew up in the era when an engine was not controlled by a computer you will grasp what I'm stating.

On a carburettored car you could instantly see the effect of how turning a screw changes the AFR.

A twist of the distrbutor while watching a timing light gave the advance/retard that you were looking for...

Now with computers, everything must be programmed and the end results of adjustment usually cannot be seen until road tested..sometimes with costly, disasterous results...

So if you are going to try to make any, even slightly computer controlled engine go fast without breaking, you need to do so on a dyno..

Dyno will give you feedback and feedback will offer the limit before danger..

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

Ed, yes wheel hop is a problem, I feel it on some launches and I easy of immediately which of course doesn't do good for the 1/4 mile time but better a bad time then a broken car. As to breaking the m103/m104, I think its more because people try to push the limits of these engines and when your doing that sooner or later you brake something. I've covered more than 5000 miles hard driving on my car since I changed the head gasket (actually after the rebuild, remember I took the engine apart since I bent a valve when mounting the head) and so far I haven't got any problems. Of course thats at 0.5 bars of boost ( low power compared to what some people are putting out) and also with safe tuning (still a street tune), but I agree the best tune is done on a dyno.
Btw those tires are FAT, what size are they ?


P.S. I think that my traction problem are more relayed to the fact the my car is setup with vary firm suspension, which from what a gather is not so good for traction on anything other than a very nice and smooth race track, that's why I'm thinking to switch to softer setup.

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190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)

Tires are sticky Kumho Ecsta XS
Front: 255/40/17 on 8.5 x 17 ET 18 AMG/OZ 3 piece.
Rear: 295/35/17 ( 11+" contact patch ) on 10" x 17" ET -7 AMG/OZ 3 piece

Only because you mentioned the suspension.
The reason I use Bilstein HD's with H&R Sport lowering springs is to get a slightly longer shock travel.
Valving/firmness the same as Bilstein sports, but the added travel prevents my suspension from "cycling" too quickly. !!!
My rear wheels won't hop because I have the travel that prevents the shock from hitting the internal stop..

Tried for years to get those who think a drastically lowered race type suspension works in day to day street driving..
Chassis is not supposed to bounce you around curves..

Take a look again at my picture of the equal and long rubber stripes I attain upon launch...I don't even need a locker type diff !!!

End result of a balanced suspension that allows weight transfer !

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

Another thing to get rid of wheel hop on our cars is the engine and drivetrain mounts. Stiffen everything up and hop all but goes away. I have solid diff and subframe mounts and one solid engine mount and I have no hop.

Very good point...

Good talk about traction here...

RBYCC, you seem to have alot knowledge about racing...
Thanks for good info.

Someone wondered my "overtunig desire". I have different basis. To me there is nothing new megasguirt system or very much of power gains or anything, only 2 cylinders more.

About that pushing limit 103/104:

My motivation to built 104 at very first was to do a straight 6 engine.

My friends and I played whith 4 cylinder turbo engines for a while. I wanted to do 6 cylinder whith same specs. Pumpish was testing hes own car and I saw his project in here, so I opened one Mercedes 24v motor and it looked like very strong iron. This is why i tested that GT47 turbo setup on Mercedes Benz. One of my friends wanted a 6 cylinder too, so he bought a Toyota 2jzgte.


About that road testing. I think that in high power levels road tuning is too dangerous, even whith super soft tyres. Thou I tuned my 4 cylinder in road, but i didnt have any children yet...

I don't use Megasquirt or anything similar..
Still use completely stock K-Jet III.
Enrichment comes from firing two additional injectors located between the air valve assembly and the throttle body.
Injectors are controlled by a very simplistic Split Second AIC1.
The controller is 3D mappable via a laptop with inputs to the internal MAP sensor and feedback from a wideband O2 sensor...

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

Looks like there is something similar in fuelsystem.

Here are the major differences between running a straight EFI system as Megasquirt or using additional injectors with a stand alone control.

Both are computer programmed and 3D mappable based on engine speed and manifold pressure signals.

With the EFI you must create a map for the full engine range and continue "tweaking" until it works.
I've seen many posts about the EFI installed both on NA and boosted M103/M104 engines.
But yet to see any documentation on how much power is attributed to the EFI control installation.

The application of additional injectors that are controlled by a single purpose stand alone controller does two things.

It allows the stock Bosch CIS systems to remain in place.
The stock system is set/tuned to factory spec and doesn't even know that a turbo has been installed on the engine.

The enrichment control such as the Split Second AIC1 sits quiet until it reads MAP pressure rising from the turbo boost.
It then and only then will start adding fuel to the intake.

In essence you have two separate and stand alone systems which give you a fail safe situation
Should the turbo control for whatever reason break down, the car still can be driven normally without any problem.
You will never truely lean out as the stock Bosch CSI system will run at or below stoichmetric.
Usually sufficient for a few pounds of boost !!!

The EFI if problematic prevents the car from being driven and is more apt to set up a lean condition over the RPM range.

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

One thing your forgetting is the MS EFI has closed the open loop so 'tunes' itself when the TPS lower than a certain % with the wideband o2 targeting 14.7 AFR. It also has a "tip-in" map so it can had fuel when boosting in closed loop operations. Open loop is the completely fuel table dependent map. The CIS may be a fail safe if your AIC1 goes out but if your in a full boost situation and the AIC1 failed you could easily damage the engine.

__________________
1997 Mercedes E320 Turbo
Garrett T3/60-1 Turbocharger
Custom Water Intercooler Setup
352rwhp/366rwtq @ 8.6psi in '08

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1051/log7smallay9.jpghttp://img66.imageshack.us/img66/740...s3smallox0.jpg

I can understand your point....

MS EFI is basically a DIY system...
Only as good as those who attempt an install.

TurboTechnics along with Mosselman have been installed on 124's for going on twenty four years.

The majority of installs are still on the road, many with over 150K of reliable driving.

Most of the TT installs have been converted to a stand alone additional injector control.

Can my AIC1 fail..sure can, but still will be more reliable then any MS EFI appplication..

Basic engineering dictates that the more components in the control logic, the more they multiply mean time before failure possibility.

I guess I live in a world that modification of any engine falls under the law of diminishing returns.

You're only going to get so much power out of any engine before it begins to lose reliability.

We are of course speaking of street applications as race engines are built to standards that make them less then streetable.

Been waiting for years for one of these 1000HP M103/M104 to have more credibility then just a You Tube video or a dyno printout..

Would like to see a 1/4 mile time slip to see how much power even a claimed 600HP M103/M104 gets to the ground without breaking something...

Should be seeing 9 to 11 second runs and trapping at 130-145.

I want to believe...

__________________
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...c/GOWIDE-1.jpg
1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

Ed, megasquirt is a very reliable system once installed and setup right. I've helped install and tune the system on a couple of my friends cars (mostly turbo or NA converted to turbo) and those cars are running for more than 2-3 years, daily driven without any glitches, also most of them are raced almost every weekend (1/4 mile ,street races etc.)...I'll even go out on a limb here and say that MS is less complicated than the CIS, less sensors (HALL/VR,IAT,MAT,TPS,MAP), less mechanical parts (no mechnical injectors, no fuel distributor) i.e. looking from this angle it's less prone to failure. Of course the draw back is that the MS is as good as it's tuned, but tuning the MS is also quit easy. Another thing is that with the stock setup+AIC your limited only to fuel control and if you reach the stage where you need to back off timing you will need to add some kind of ignition controller, so you end up with more components hence the system ends up being more prone to failure (MS has everything on one simple board). Also, MS has a lot of extra options which are not available with the cis, like over boost fuel cut (very nice safety option), retarding ignition and boost (using boost control ) if temps rise over a given point and so on.

P.S. as to power vs traction...I like the pirelli motto - "Power is nothing without control "

__________________
190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)

joreto has hit the nail on the head with that last post.

the tt system is, when updated with a modern injector controller, very good, and as ed has proved, very reliable and gives good power, upto the limits of the mercedes timing control.

ms is a pain to get right, the problems are mainly due to earthing issues by the way, but when right, the timing control allows more tuning potential.

you pays your money, and takes your choices...

on a different note, joreto, do you use the 190 16v cozzy driveshafts, are they uprated in any way, i ask because i have now broken four halfshafts in the wide body, and am gettin annoyed with changing them...

i have also read on another fourum, about a manual 124 with a std engine braking a half shaft with an attempted fast pull off, the 124 ones seem to be very weakly designed around the spider and ball joint at the hub end, just pressed on tin cover, once it moves, the shaft falls apart!

__________________
ce 320 amg
widebody
tiwn turbo
Mutty 'der nail'
soon to be a six speed nail


"some mods improve your car and make it into something it never was, other mods, however, although essentially the same, are not, and make that car a ricer"

if your car isnt shiny, you dont know what you are talking about, remember; paint shine = knowledge. In order to be taken seriously, you should spend all your money on paint, (and get a dyno reading).
Dont forget to polish it often