turbo ignition timing referance doctument. - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

nick.ged · #16 09-28-2010, 04:39 PM

my engine is amg 103, utilising the 104 crank.

the more i investigate and tune my engine, the more i doubt the claims put forward from other so called mega power engines that are banded about!
for instance, the fuel supply issue shoots them down in flames, imho.

my ve doesnt drop rapidly, it just fades away from around 120 at 3000 rpm to 90 odd at 7000, i think bigger turbos are required, my engine will breath better that any standard engine, dont forget it was making 245 bhp when N/A.

Joreto · #17 09-29-2010, 02:53 AM

Have in mind that the VE in MS also depends on the afr, so if you have say 11:1 at 3000rpm and 11.8 @ 7000 this will also affect the VE number. With the AFR equal across the rpms, my peak VE is around 4400-4500 rpms (peak TQ) so your peak seems a bit low, which in my opinion indicates small fast spooling turbos which run out of steam in the high rpms (as you said ) . Tonight I'll look at my VE and see what my peak VE is and what it is at 7000 rpms .

nick.ged · #18 09-29-2010, 03:33 AM

one thing i have just realised, my engine is basically a stroked 103, from previous projects and collecting of usless info, i seem to remember that stroking an engine moves the power down the rev range, for example from memory, a 325 bm made 185 bhp at 6000 rpm, when the eta 2.7 crank was used, the 185 bhp was made at around 5400 rpm?

this may also explain why my tourque peak is lower than the expected 4400 rpm, i think i may have to tweek my spark table downwards a tad? as in ive used 3200 rpm to set the timing map around, but with the stroker crank, this may need to be lowerd.

does anyone have a merc spec sheet for the 104 engines timing details please?

i still think largr turbos will raise the tourque up the rev band as well mind.

also i realise that the ve numbers are only an indication, for example if the opening time of the injectors is set too high then feul is being injected that ms doesnt know about, so making the ve numbers lower across the map. if too low the oposit occurs.

i will, when i can be botherd, do the one squirt, two squirt thing, and check my opening time, if it is correct, then the afr shold not change between the two settings on tickover.

Joreto · #19 09-30-2010, 02:27 AM

According to the info in this site http://www.baureihe201.de/W201/amg.htm your max TQ is at 4500 rpm .

nick.ged · #20 09-30-2010, 04:36 AM

yeah, max tourque at 4500 in that artical, ive seen others that say around 4300 to 4500.

my max ve at the mo is at 2800 rpm, surely the turbos wouldnt lower the curve that much, they must be way too small for my engine?

RBYCC · #21 09-30-2010, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick.ged

yeah, max tourque at 4500 in that artical, ive seen others that say around 4300 to 4500.

my max ve at the mo is at 2800 rpm, surely the turbos wouldnt lower the curve that much, they must be way too small for my engine?

Nick

Actual dyno results on my M103-12V TT with CIS-E and Split Second control

220.4 torque @ 4250 RPM.
Kit installed as supplied by TT, boost approx 6psi

301.8 torque @ 4156 RPM
TT coil intake/boost tubing replaced with aluminum and silicone.
K&N filter replaces TT Fram filter
Boost at 7.3PSI.

Joreto · #22 09-30-2010, 10:50 AM

Ed, whats interesting is that measuring with the g-tech at 0.5 bars (actually was 0.42 - 0.45 -> 142kpa - 145kpa viewed in the log ) I get 219 - 220 ft-lbs @ 4300-4400 rpm, might turn out that this gadget is pretty accurate if all the input is correct. What we must keep in mind is that Nick is judging his VE based on the megasquirt VE table, and that table is affected buy a number of variables so theoretically that may not be his actual torque peak, 2800rpm seem pretty low.

nick.ged · #23 09-30-2010, 05:40 PM

indeed, that is my opinion, i think my engine is out breathing the t2's quite early in the rev band.

RBYCC · #24 10-01-2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick.ged

indeed, that is my opinion, i think my engine is out breathing the t2's quite early in the rev band.

Nick

If your engine is "out breathing" the T2's then you're not getting enough air into them....

Hsve you modified your intake and boost tubing ?

Why I posted my dyno results was to show how much power can be gained with a minimal boost increase along with a major difference in air in to the turbos and moving it to the throttle body.

I will be installing a water/meth injection when I get the car back...Increasing boost to 10lbs and bring in the cooling spray at 8lbs...

I'll be molding Corvette C6 brake cooling duct intakes into the lower part of the GEN I replica bumper.
The right side will duct directly into the TT intake box and the left will just duct into the engine bay to help remove heat through the hood lovers.

Dense air is what makes power in a boosted engine.
You know me..just an old guy using basic old school tuning tricks to make power without the help of modern technology

It will also allow you to pull more advance....

Estimating a 30%-40% power increase with thse tweaks.

RBYCC · #25 10-01-2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

Ed, whats interesting is that measuring with the g-tech at 0.5 bars (actually was 0.42 - 0.45 -> 142kpa - 145kpa viewed in the log ) I get 219 - 220 ft-lbs @ 4300-4400 rpm, might turn out that this gadget is pretty accurate if all the input is correct. What we must keep in mind is that Nick is judging his VE based on the megasquirt VE table, and that table is affected buy a number of variables so theoretically that may not be his actual torque peak, 2800rpm seem pretty low.

Your G-Tech seems to be spot on with my first dyno pulls....

I don't belive in "coincedences" !!!

nick.ged · #26 10-01-2010, 03:47 PM

ed, as usual i have the up most respect for you and your knowledge ect. you have been there and done it, and your theory's ect are 100% correct. you have a perfect set up using the piggy back and cis, and the output is very good indeed. the water injection etc will improve it also, I'm sure.

when considering the comments i have posted about my set up, dont forget my amg modded engine has a 40ish% better ability to breath than a std 103, going on the outputs quoted from merc (170) and amg (245), respectively re N/A induction. this was achieved without any mods to the cis feeding the fuel in as well dont forget, similar timing also.

i know your thoughts on standalone, but the mega squirt gives 've' numbers in a table relating to revs per minuet.

these are a representation of the ammount of air in the engine at any given rpm, worked out from the feul in, (from the size of injector, and the pulse time) and the afr out, (from a ngk powerdex wideband, with new sensor fitted)

the timing of injector opening, and wheather it is correct or not, can add or subtract from the ammount of feul injected, and make the vie numbers incorrect re cylinder filling, but is till a constant, so weather it is 'correct' or not (ie it says 90%, but it could be 60 or 110 % ) only affects the ve number given, not the relationship between them at each rev point, and my ve table is showing max ve at less than 3000 rpm.

boost also peaks and then drops off at around the same figures, so i am sure that the t2's are not large enought for my engine.

i have exactly the same inlet set up as you... i copied it from your original posts and PM's from benzworld, two years ago.

RBYCC · #27 10-01-2010, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick.ged

ed, as usual i have the up most respect for you and your knowledge ect. you have been there and done it, and your theory's ect are 100% correct. you have a perfect set up using the piggy back and cis, and the output is very good indeed. the water injection etc will improve it also, I'm sure.

when considering the comments i have posted about my set up, dont forget my amg modded engine has a 40ish% better ability to breath than a std 103, going on the outputs quoted from merc (170) and amg (245), respectively re N/A induction. this was achieved without any mods to the cis feeding the fuel in as well dont forget, similar timing also.

i know your thoughts on standalone, but the mega squirt gives 've' numbers in a table relating to revs per minuet.

these are a representation of the ammount of air in the engine at any given rpm, worked out from the feul in, (from the size of injector, and the pulse time) and the afr out, (from a ngk powerdex wideband, with new sensor fitted)

the timing of injector opening, and wheather it is correct or not, can add or subtract from the ammount of feul injected, and make the vie numbers incorrect re cylinder filling, but is till a constant, so weather it is 'correct' or not (ie it says 90%, but it could be 60 or 110 % ) only affects the ve number given, not the relationship between them at each rev point, and my ve table is showing max ve at less than 3000 rpm.

boost also peaks and then drops off at around the same figures, so i am sure that the t2's are not large enought for my engine.

i have exactly the same inlet set up as you... i copied it from your original posts and PM's from benzworld, two years ago.

Nick..

I understand exactly, just wanting to confirm that you got rid of the restrictive intake/boost tubing that TT supplied.

Without getting max air in and out it's hard to tune regardless of MS, or CIS-E....

Ed A.

nick.ged · #28 10-01-2010, 04:50 PM

old mercs kickin ass, young medium or old drivers... no matter!