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  #1  
Old 10-07-2010, 10:47 AM
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compound charging

hi I have decided to run a compound setup for one reason really I have a holset H2D (equivalent to a modern Holset HX50) and eaton m90 taking up space. I know most people dont like compound setups mainly because of the cost of getting a supercharger and a turbo. My car is m104 3.2l running megasquirt I will drop the compression down from 10:1 to about 9:1 and the plan is to make 450 bhp at the wheels but with a flat torque curve and as little boost as possible. I am just kind of throwing the idea out there at the moment for information, in theory it should net some good results as the pros should out number the cons.


Last edited by taint; 10-07-2010 at 03:47 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2010, 04:19 PM
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So you want to run the Eaton AND the Holset H2D?

In a 190?
With a M104?

Biggest issue in my head is where on earth are you gonna stuff it all?
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  #3  
Old 10-07-2010, 04:50 PM
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yes i plan to run them in a 190. the supercharger will fit where the AC used to be, its where it used be when i had it on a m104 3.0l cis. Fitting them in there is not gonna be the biggest issue, the issue is gonna be the plumbing and intercooler space.
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  #4  
Old 10-07-2010, 10:25 PM
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Go for it then. I feel that there will still be a noticable power lag until that big H2D spools. If at all possible go for something a lil' smaller if you can. If the H2D flows what a 52 will, that's 89lb/min ~ 890crank hp or ~ 800wheel hp at peak flow. when you're only flowing 50lb/min I don't think the turbo will be anywhere near its efficiency islands.
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:08 AM
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"I feel that there will still be a noticable power lag until that big H2D spools."

That is the great thing about compounding. The blower makes boost straight out of the hole and it also spools the turbo early. It is sort of like spraying nitrous at low rpms with big turbos.
I have thought about this a lot and this is one of my long term plans if I build a forged bottom end and go for the max hp. I thing that around 6lbs of boost from the blower and then the turbo can do the rest. This would give you a pretty drivable launch and then once you were running the rest of the boost would come on. I do not know about the eaton blowers but my whipple is rated to 30psi internal pressure. Roots style blowers though normally do not boost in
the case.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
"I feel that there will still be a noticable power lag until that big H2D spools."

That is the great thing about compounding. The blower makes boost straight out of the hole and it also spools the turbo early. It is sort of like spraying nitrous at low rpms with big turbos.
I have thought about this a lot and this is one of my long term plans if I build a forged bottom end and go for the max hp. I thing that around 6lbs of boost from the blower and then the turbo can do the rest. This would give you a pretty drivable launch and then once you were running the rest of the boost would come on. I do not know about the eaton blowers but my whipple is rated to 30psi internal pressure. Roots style blowers though normally do not boost in
the case.
That's what I kinda figured. Due to the SC working down low, the turbo has plenty of time to spool so I woulda thought a large turbo would be the better way to go?

I would luv to do this in the future but to get it engineered & legal here hmmmmm I say go for it whipple! Absolutely awesome
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:34 AM
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Nitrous would be easier on the engine but if you can twin charge it do it!
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  #8  
Old 10-09-2010, 02:03 PM
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@whipple you are right roots type blowers do there compression in the inlet. i think a roots blower will be better suited for the way I want to plumb it, as in the turbo will feed into the supercharger so at high revs the turbo will boost the superchargers efficency and this will atleast keep the plumbing on the easier side.

@mags I could get a smaller turbo but I dont want to much of a restriction on the exhaust side, but it's easy to work on turbos and I could always make it a hybrid of some sort.
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2010, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taint View Post
the turbo will feed into the supercharger so at high revs the turbo will boost the superchargers efficency and this will atleast keep the plumbing on the easier side.
Won't the turbo restrict the air feed to the blower at low rev? And won't the blower block the airflow from the turbo at higher rev?
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Old 10-09-2010, 08:28 PM
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Actually compounding works by ratios. So say you have a blower making 14.7 psi of boost. This is actually a 2:1 ratio. It is overcoming atmosphere and boosting another atmosphere. So add another atmosphere to that and you end up with 45psi. The blower will take the turbo feed of 14.7psi and then you will end up with not 29.4psi but 44.1 psi of boost. The advantage is that you can run extremely high boost levels with efficiency or in this case run boost at low rpms with boost at high rpm without loosing as much efficiency in either area.
My blower is pretty close to the end of its output. I could go with a larger blower or a turbo. Or I could simply add a blower to the current setup to increase boost. I would lower my blower's output on its own to around 6lbs of boost and do the rest with a turbo, say 15-20 psi.
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  #11  
Old 10-09-2010, 08:49 PM
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Thanks for the explanation. I'm not very conversant (yet) with these kind of set-ups but I will follow with great interest as I may take some idead for some future projects!
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2010, 11:31 AM
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The turbo feeding the roots is not going to affect the supercharger it will help it remember a roots supercharger is really just an air move so if a higher pressure of air is sent to the eaton its going to move a higher amount of air.

so in theory from the turbo's point of view the eaton will just make the engine have a higher volumetric efficiency since the eaton will be helping the engine get rid of the exhaust gases faster, which in turn means the turbo spools up quicker but bare in mind the eaton will also be making its own boost which will compound with the boost from the turbo so the turbo will have to do less work to make more power.

but to answer your question regarding whether the turbo will be a restriction to the eaton it might be alittle so my plan is to a have bypass valve that closes when the turbo starts making boost.

on the other hand if the turbo inlet is big enough there wont be a air restriction to the supercharger.


Last edited by taint; 10-10-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-13-2010, 07:43 AM
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the honda boys try anything once

found some interesting builds using the twin charge concept and I have been trying to find some dyno charts to go with them but alot of people keep there info underwraps that whole show success only.







A twincharged lancer been done by a company called norris designs, no pictures yet just dyno charts.
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2011, 02:32 AM
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3.0 twin charge

I am doin this right now with my 190e. 3.0 swap with turbonetics t3/t4 and eaton m90 of the thunderbird supercoupe. my question is do i need to switch to a different size pulley since the 3.8 t bird was pushing 12-14psi with the m90 and if so what size? can i use a boost controller or a seperate wastegate to control the supercharger boost. by the way I want 8-10 psi. preferably 8psi. Any help will be greatly appreciated guys.
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  #15  
Old 05-15-2011, 11:19 AM
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You will probably have to put a smaller pulley on the blower to get its output down that low. I do not know what size the crank pulley is on a t bird though. It is a ratio issue. So if the t bird is running a 2:1 pulley ratio to make 12 psi then you would probably make 14-16 psi on that same ratio because your engine is smaller etc. If the m103 crank pulley is way smaller than the t bird then it will make less boost.
If you are only planning on making 8psi then there is no reason to compound. Compounding is for making very high boost levels efficiently. s

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