vintage racer ,AMG 3.6 HP AND MODS

eduardocastrejon · #1 06-25-2012, 02:38 PM

Im building a vintage rally car with this amg 3.6 engine fitted to 722 trans and 3.92 rear end

this project was not possible without your help
special thanks to Bob Avera (mag52)

rules dont allowed the use of anykind of fuel injection turbo or supercharged engines, then I use 3 dcoe 40 webers with 36 chokes, I wanted 48 size but I already have this 40 size carbs and are new, I replaced the original 27 chokes to 36

Ignition- I will use megajolt ignition box to edis 6 with ford and gm parts, m103 ignition cables with different boot to work with explorer coil, I have 2 of everything.

Engine
I found a 53k at miami

I check compression ,I took out the head and the engine looks like new condition.
still I replace head gasket, valve seals, carter gasket, valve cover gasket
oil filter is relocated remote

trans
the engine is already bolted to the manual trans with single mass lightened flywheel and adapted bigger pressure plate.
shaft from trans to differential was shortened and balance

rear end
difficult to found a 6.2 rear end with lsd, but I finished with a 3.90 rear end with posi and disc brakes
I have 3 complete rear ends 4.10, 3.90 3.65

cooling
3 row aluminum radiator
2 electric fan with variable speed
oil cooler
trans cooler

__________________________________________________________

questions

The AMG 3.6 M104 was rated at 276 horsepower (206 kW) at 5,750 rpm and 284 pound-feet (385 N·m) of torque at 4,000 rpm

Probably this engine have more potencial in na form.

for reliability purpose (endurance race), I dont want to replace cams, port head or headers.

reading some post, there is no gain in headers

cams- somebody have the duration and lift of m104 cams

rpm redline- I dont want an screamer engine, but I want to know what is the limitation of rpm ? intake?

intake manifold- I´m building an aluminum intake manifold with vaccum ports for map sensor in megajolt box.
the manifold is short (brake booster is near)
Probably I will built a cold box
base line for weber jets is at this moment 55 idle, 130 main
lc1 air fuel ratio sensor and gauge installed

ok, longer the intake manifold = more torque
shorter manifold = more hp
longer stacks = more tq

I know that I lost torque with carbs but maybe I gain some ponies at high rpm.
torque lost probably is not a problem because the car is "light"

(2,600 lb)
and the trans gear ratios are shorter between and the almost drag rear end.

if somebody have advice about this project , please let me know

DieselPaul · #2 06-26-2012, 04:05 PM

I can't help you, but you carbed an M104?

Could you post pictures?

JMURiz · #3 06-28-2012, 10:37 AM

I've seen a carb'd M110 CIS engine before, so it's probably do-able. Interested to see how it all comes out.

jadewombat · #4 07-02-2012, 04:29 PM

Can you raise the compression? You should be able to configure MJ for a knock sensor:

Autosport Labs :: View topic - knock

jadewombat · #5 07-05-2012, 02:10 PM

Don't see this very often, but carbs for a 190:

Mercedes benz 190 sl carbs .air cleaner . Intake - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

DieselPaul · #6 07-05-2012, 05:52 PM

The motor in question has too many cylinders for that setup. I also don't know that Solexes for a 1.9L well under 200HP motor will feed a 3.6L "race car"

JMURiz · #7 07-05-2012, 10:32 PM

For sizing you can use a race 3.6 911 Porsche engine with carbs for comparison. I would think something like a 45/48mm weber DCOE side-draft, but I'm no expert. You'd need someone that knows the airflow of the cam etc.

Re-read the original posting...the 40s MAY work, but you may run out of steam on the top-end by not going with 45s. Worth a shot seeing as you have them already, at least the leg-work will be done and a swap to 45+ in the future will be easy.

jadewombat · #8 07-06-2012, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselPaul

The motor in question has too many cylinders for that setup.

Wow, you're quick. Nothing gets by you does it?? I'm guessing you're a member of MENSA, too.

I said it was for a 190, I didn't say it was for his M104. The subject of carbs. rarely comes up for a MB though.

eduardocastrejon · #9 07-10-2012, 12:56 AM

sorry by delay

traveling

some old photos
mercedes pictures by eduardocastrejon - Photobucket

MAG58 · #10 07-11-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadewombat

Wow, you're quick. Nothing gets by you does it?? I'm guessing you're a member of MENSA, too.

You're just a big ray of sunshine aren't you? I bet you're a blast at parties...

OP, look at joreto's thread. He has his ignition table he's using and it's the same that I'm using on my MS3 M104. I'd back everything off of that a degree or two and then you can advance it until you start to get a hint of knock. It's a pretty safe spark table though. I know you PM'd me about it but I don't have my MS ini file with me atm, my apologies.

EDIT: Here it is:

As far as RPM limit on the engine, 7k seems to be fine, though I suspect she'll stop pulling hard about 6500.
The 40's by far will be your power limiting factor on the C36 motor long before the engine itself will.

duxthe1 · #11 07-11-2012, 07:47 PM

Since the OP isn't boosted that table is going to be far less than ideal. There are 5 rows above barometric that he will not be able to use giving poor resolution in the 7 that he can. I think the best advice is to build a new table for the engine in question, as no borrowed map is going to be ideal for his application. The beauty of the MS / MJ is that you can configure it to do exactly what you need. Using somebody else's compromises kinda defeats the purpose.

MAG58 · #12 07-11-2012, 10:17 PM

I know, but it's a good starting point for 0-100kPa. It's 100x easier to start with a base map and build from that than to shoot blind, especially when it's from the same base motor.

Are you telling me that you started your MS with 100% blank base maps?

eduardocastrejon · #13 07-12-2012, 12:58 AM

hi, thanks for the answers

I already bought knock tool from msd Engine Knock Alert - 8964

mag58, what is your opinion about operation range of vvt ?

regards

40 dcoe weber sidedraft with 36mm chokes (max), I supose that 6 36mm is more than the original body throttle (74mm I believe ?)

duxthe1 · #14 07-12-2012, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAG58

Are you telling me that you started your MS with 100% blank base maps?

Yes. I've actually built two timing maps from scratch and use table switching to select between them. I started by selecting X and Y values that met my engines demands and filled in the cells with conservative numbers. Using the 3D view I shaped those #s into a rough map suitable for my engine. After some test driving I advanced my timing in increments to arrive at my current tables. Comparing my main timing map to the one posted there are similar load/rpm cells where I have 15 degrees more timing!

I actually found the timing tables to be one of the easier aspects of tuning the MS. Getting the PWM idle valve to react predictably and getting the VE tables dialed in with only a narrowband were orders of magnitude more difficult.

MAG58 · #15 07-12-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eduardocastrejon

mag58, what is your opinion about operation range of vvt ?

Jay Rash seems to think on at around 1800RPM and off around 4000-4200RPM. I'd agree with that for the 3.6.

My engine is on at 1700 and off at 4800 and I find the 3.2 really likes that range. With the 3.6 and carbs though I'd start with Jay's ballpark and adjust from there to what you think gives you the most linear powerband.

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