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  #31  
Old 05-26-2017, 06:59 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
The VW bucket I ordered in to check actually looked a bit shorter. Enough visually that I didn't even measure it. There are readily available solid lifter buckets but I'm not looking to deal with valve adjustments or spend the money.
A lot of engines use the same basic Ina bucket lifter. I'd be interested to see if other buckets have a taller lifter / plunger in the correct diameter. The lifter separates from the bucket rather easily and it would be awesome to mix and match to come up with a drop in fix. I may spend a little time in the Junkyard this weekend to see if I can come up with something there.

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90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #32  
Old 05-26-2017, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
My Google-Fu is strong today. I found a website of Ina's parent company that has an awesome search database. The stock lifter listed for the 104 engine is 104 050 12 25 and its listed dimensions are 35mm diameter, and 24mm height. A little digging around shows several 35mm diameter lifters with 26mm height. Lots of VWs have them, as well as BMWs. I guess I got (un)lucky with my wholesaler looking for a 35mm VW lifter and ordered the oddball short one to compare. I'll see what I can pull at the junkyard this weekend to compare.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #33  
Old 05-27-2017, 08:33 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
Is the height dim total height or cam surface to valve stem operating height? I'd be less concerned with overall height as long as it doesn't bind or come out of the head. Would be more concerned with operating height.

You had said the the lifter ( lash adjuster ) separates from the bucket. Is the lifter a stand alone unit or just the plunger? Lifters are made to a very tight tolerance then match fit for proper bleed down rate, mixing might cause problems if the lifter isn't stand alone.
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  #34  
Old 05-27-2017, 09:43 AM
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Posts: 4,177
There is a lifter cartridge that separates from the bucket. It has plunger, spring, and check ball with a circlip that holds it all in the bucket. If you can grab it with some pliers (not easy) and twist / pull, the circlip will collapse and the lifter will separate from the bucket.

Operating height is not mentioned. Given the different part numbers listed for 35mm X 26mm lifters operating height has to be one of the variables. When I go to the jyd I'm going to try to get any bucket lifter I can, not just 35mm diameter ones. 33mm is also a common size and one of those may have a compatible lifter. In fact I wouldn't necessarily need a whole lifter, just the part that protrudes from the bottom and contacts the valve. The circlips position on that part determines the max operating height.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #35  
Old 05-27-2017, 10:47 AM
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Location: seattle
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If I remember correctly. We were looking at VW buckets when I was discussing going much further on this stuff. You can get solid lifters with shims as well.
Make sure you have the piston to valve clearance with everything you are doing. That added duration gets tricky unless it is on the overlap side of things. That is one of the reasons we went with mostly more lift under the curve rather than increasing duration a bunch when I had cams made. If we could degree them in that would change things a lot.
I think that a fully adjustable setup could make some real difference.
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  #36  
Old 05-27-2017, 12:48 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
At the junkyard today I pulled twelve 35mm lifters out of a 5 series BMW. It felt nice to trash that motor to get them. I also pulled one 35mm lifter out of an 8V VW motor, and there was a Toyota motor with the cams out that I snagged a lifter from. It was a rather small diameter but the plunger looked interesting. The yard didn't have a price listing for lifters so I paid for a 20$ bracket and out the door.

I cleaned up my deck surface and pistons yesterday after work. I also dial indicated my timing pointer true. It was almost 3 degrees off. I'm really hoping my valve clearances check out where I want to put the cams. Its such a pain to pull and place the head in the car that I really want to do it as few times as possible.
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90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #37  
Old 05-27-2017, 07:34 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
There is a lifter cartridge that separates from the bucket. It has plunger, spring, and check ball with a circlip that holds it all in the bucket. If you can grab it with some pliers (not easy) and twist / pull, the circlip will collapse and the lifter will separate from the bucket.

Given there is a spring on the plunger, this is the active portion of the lifter assembly and is match fit to the bucket ID for proper bleed down. This isn't a OHC engine with rockers below the cam and one end of the rocker on a valve and the other on a drop in lash adjuster.

There are likely specs for testing lifter bleed down. Or at minimum you could place the lifters in a pan of oil then use a drill press / arbor press to get a feel for bleed down. A valve spring tester would be even better as you could use a constant pressure then record distance over a fixed time.

I really really wish I could find the euro guys post where they used an ex cam on the intake.
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  #38  
Old 05-27-2017, 08:45 PM
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Running this through Google cam on bucket site:speedtalk.com

Brings up lots of other cam / bucket posts and it nets the post I remember reading in 09 about max cam size for bucket dia. I didn't read all of it now but post 2 speaks of a Ford engine that uses 35 mm buckets. I'd be guessing it is the single OHC "modular" engine or more likely the Mustang DOHC 32 valve

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  #39  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:45 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
I pulled the BMW and VW lifters apart this evening. The only significant difference between them is the spring for the VW lifter is stiffer. Given that the 8V motor has larger heavier valves that makes sense. The part that protrudes and contacts the valve is identical between the two lifters. The male plunger that fits inside that part is all but identical discounting a couple 10ths millimeter length. The buckets are slightly different but the critical dimensions are the same, so from a working height perspective they are the same. I don't have my MB lifter at the house so it will be Tuesday before I compare them.
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90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-28-2017, 08:08 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
The only significant difference between them is the spring for the VW lifter is stiffer. Given that the 8V motor has larger heavier valves that makes sense.

The spring exists only to get the plunger to extend after the lifter has bleed down to minimize valve tap on start up. ( engine stopped with valve open )

The check valve isolates cam to valve forces from the oiling system and locks the lifter solid.

Think of a lifter as a floor jack that has a weak pump but good lifting cylinder. If you try to jack up a car, it won't go up. If you raise the jack without a load then place a load on it , it will hold. The added twist for a lifter is the plunger isn't sealed to allow it to bleed down slowly to prevent pumping up too much if the valves float. Another parlance is a timing chin tensioner that has a ratchet.

Also, the plunger area isn't large enough for oil pressure to counteract valve spring pressure very much.
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  #41  
Old 05-30-2017, 09:02 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
Had a chance to compare the BMW, VW and Mercedes lifters today. Mb has the tallest working height by about 2mm. If I was in the same situation building any of the other engines the MB lifter would be the fix.

Got the guides in today and dropped off at the machinist. Made sure he was clear about my dilemma. I'm at the front of the line and expect it done tomorrow. With head in hand I can figure out just where I'm at.

If I could put "Hurry up and Wait" on the license plate, I would.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #42  
Old 06-01-2017, 08:25 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
Picked up the head today. Looks pretty awesome all clean and machined. When I dropped off the head I talked to my guy and he said that there wasn't enough material to do more than 3 angles. In the middle of the job he called and said that there was enough to do another angle so he did a 75 degree cut and opened up the seat into the port.

With the head on the bench I bolted the cam into the head with an original lifter and a later lightweight MB lifter and dropped a valve onto each. Dial indicator confirms the valves sit proud of the seats by .5mm - .6mm. Not as much as I may have wanted but its on the good side of not much. As the valves wear they should start to sink further into the lifters so it looks like this is a go.

With the head on the bench I did another measurement. I measured how far the intake valve can lift before it is flush with the head. I came up with 1.45mm, which is the max lift allowed at TDC not accounting for the valve reliefs.

The head is pretty significantly milled but the non digital dial caliper I had to check the head thickness with looks like it came in over min spec of 135.5mm. Eyeball says maybe 135.7mm. I'm going to measure chamber volume to see where the compression ratio comes in at. The math says a stock chamber is 34cc. (edit: Math was wrong! Positive piston protrusion of 0.9mm had to be entered into the calculator as -0.9mm to get the math right. Actual stock volume back figures to 53-54cc) Curious what I'll measure with the head milled near minimum.

I need the static compression ratio numbers before I can figure out my cam timing. Been reading a lot on the subject and the consensus is that the most important event is the closing of the intake valve. Closing later (more duration) costs compression so I want to counter that loss with the new higher compression. Ideally I will time the intake valve closing so that the new dynamic compression matches the old dynamic compression. Once I get that figured out I'll have to trial assemble the head on the block and check the valve clearance with the cams timed where I want. Only worried about the intake valve since the exhaust cam will be adjusted towards more clearance.

Going to be out of town for the weekend so nothing is going to happen until next week.
Attached Thumbnails
104.980 head work-img_0093.jpg  
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff

Last edited by duxthe1; 06-08-2017 at 12:32 AM.
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  #43  
Old 06-05-2017, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
I did some more measuring today.

My guess about head thickness was pretty off. With my digital calipers I measured a head thickness of 135.42mm That's 0.08mm below the MB minimum thickness spec.

I measured my chamber volume and I get 51cc. If the math is right that should put me at a static compression ratio of 10.32 : 1. Plugged that into a dynamic compression ratio calculator. I can close the intake valve 10 degrees later and still have smidge more dynamic compression than the stock cam at 10 : 1. That will be opening the intake valve 7 degrees sooner. Next step is measuring the valve clearance at these timing figures.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-08-2017, 01:43 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
I finally got my valve to piston clearance measured. The closest point is 4 degrees ATDC where I get 1.3mm. That's 0.051" for the less metric minded. I'd have wanted 0.060" but I'll run it where its at and not lose any sleep. The exhaust side seemed to have enough that it didn't warrant measuring.

When I timed my intake cam where I wanted it, the exhaust cam looked to fall exactly where I wanted it too. The adjustable idler I made pulled the chain a bit forward to time the intake just enough to get the exhaust a few degrees ahead and right where I wanted it. "I love it when a plan comes together"

In true hurry up and wait fashion I had left the spring seats at the machinist and was planning to pick them up today. Called ahead to make sure the trip wasn't a bust. It's a bust, he won't be back until Monday.

Once I pick up the seats I can final assemble the head and put this puppy back together. I may bring it home and play with it a bit over the weekend since the valves are still out. Meanwhile... hurry up and wait.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 06-09-2017, 04:40 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
Something to consider.

In the past I've talked to a BMW guy that road races an inline 6. Whenever these engines over rev they pull the head afterwards and look for marks on the piston from valves or just go head and change the valves. What happens is the valves float, hit the piston, bend then straighten out due to being pounded as the engine is running. The problem is if the engine is continued to to be raced, the heads snap off. To solve this, they use drop in "stock" valve springs from Ferrea or similar.

A rev limiter won't catch a missed a shift due to the engines inertia and it won't protect from a mechanical over rev ( like 4 to 3 when you wanted 4 to 5 )

I'm not sure what clearance is enough.

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