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#31
08-13-2002, 01:17 PM
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Which route contains the least amount of (-)'s associated w/ it????
CT sensor/ piggy tail: ("tricking it to run more often impacts alot of other things.....what things?): > near constant low speed aux fan usage= premature or accelerated fan wear and increased alternator wear >any elec. system/ load related/ relay (-) or extra wear issues? >require eventual upgrade to the 143amp W140 alternator to support the near constant fan functioning? > effective hp decrease? >appears Guido, Neil, et al are wishing to/abandoning this method of dealing with higher temps.....JimF appears to standing as a proponent of this method Fan clutch engagement mod: >belt/ tensioner/ bearings premature or accelerated wear issues? >fan clutch itself premature or acelerated wear issues? > effective hp decrease? > increased fan blade noise > Q: except w a/c "on"- - - w/ this mod, will the elec fans ever engage due to a temp related function? (107, etc) ...inquiring minds want to know -fad Last edited by -fad; 08-13-2002 at 01:26 PM. 
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#32
08-13-2002, 06:47 PM
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Unfortunately, the Tropical viscous clutch that BongC36 posted will not bolt onto the M119 fan which has bigger fan blades, compared to the M104 specific fan- which translates to MORE air.
A new M104 fan assembly will fit, but it might not produce enough airflow when engaged. If you don't track the car, and don't mind the loss of HP when the viscous fan is engaged, the bi-metallic modification is simple and really keeps the engine COOL. The dual aux. fans IMHO is not very efficient in moving air on the radiator side "pusher fan", hence the reason why I went with a single SPAL 16-inch "puller" fan. Moreover, with the adjustable thermostat, it's easier to adjust for track and winter/summer usage. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E Last edited by ke6dcj; 08-13-2002 at 08:09 PM.
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#33
08-14-2002, 02:22 AM
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My comments . . .
There's always pros and cons for anything. Here's what I see from my viewpoint taking ideas from this thread.
1)Pro: the Cool Harness (CH) is very simple, straightforward way to achieve engine cooling. It's easy to accomplish and the reward is high. Cost is very low, $0.04 for a resistor for DIYers! My commerical version is only $39. 2) Con: the use of the fans is a little greater than it would be without the CH so there's some 'wear-and-tear' on the fans and on the electrical system to produce it; about 18 amps. So theoretically there's some hp lost! Also there's some increase in noise due to their use. Rebuttal: For a 315hp engine (S500), the extra amps from the 140amp alternator needed for the aux fans would in actuality, produce minimal 'drag' on the engine, so you can probably forget the hp loss. My gas milage is not changed since use of the CH. As far as the fan(s) usage is concerned, it would equal the use of A/C. We all know that when it's used, the fan(s) come on low almost immediately in hot weather. Since it's our summertime, it's hard to penalize fan usage for either the A/C or CH. In fact, the A/C will cause much higher fan usage than will the CH. As far as fan noise is concerned, in my S500, it's not detectable inside the car with the door open sitting in the drivers seat. So noise increase is really not a concern either. When the use of external electrical fans is considered, the PRO is increased/better engine cooling without use of the aux fan(s). The CON is high(er) noise, some hp loss and wear/tear on the alternator. Since I've not tried this I can only rely on what has been posted in this thread and my engineering background. Also cost is considerably higher ($150?) than a CH plus a 'custom' install that takes some expertise. The fan NOISE is louder and there is some hp lost because the power requred for it is higher than use of the car's aux fans. The current draw is almost constant, around 21 - 22 amps from 1180 to 2360cfm.  The alternator in non 'S' class cars is not quite as 'beefy', so 22 amps is probably noticable. So is the higher noise, some hp loss and cost outlay, outweigh/outperform the use of the CH??? In my mind, no! Actually, the wear and tear on the car's system is probably increased with the use of an external fan. But the result is better cooling. So is that worth it? Is the additional cooling needed? Is it cost effective? Hard to say "YES" to any of those questions. The CH is an effective use of the fans to get the 'best-bang-for-your-buck' in engine cooling with minimal wear and tear on the car's systems. The CH's cooling is 'close' to an external fan. Also it's very easy to accomplish by most any MB owner. Probably can't say that about an external fan mod. One final point: If the aux fans are not disabled as Neil described (CH used above 100C), then the additional current draw increases the stress on the alternator causing additional hp loss [18 + 22 amps = 40 amps]! What about hot/humid day, car driven at high speeed, then parked. When started again, aux fans will come on at high speed (30 amps) plus 22 amps from ext fan equals 52 amps.  or  alternator? Blown fuse? Welded relay?
Last edited by JimF; 08-17-2002 at 01:29 AM.
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#34
08-14-2002, 03:11 AM
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I just ordered a Race Tech accelerometer, and I'll do some measurements in the next couple of weeks of 0-60; 0-100; and 1/4 mile with the external SPAL fan, the Cool Harness/resistor mod; and if it isn't a pain, the bimetallic mod which means I'll have to remove my external puller fan, and replace with the modified viscous fan.
From the seat of my pants, the greatest loss of accelleration seemed to come from the modified viscous fan. Both the Cool Harness/resistor mod and external puller fan, IMHO, felt the same during acceleration , however, the external puller fan definitely keeps the engine cooler than just having the CH as Jim stated. In 85+F 70% humidity up a 15-mile 10% grade at 65mph, the CH kept the engine temps at approx. 100C. The same grade, with the external puller fan, and the engine temp stays at 90C. With the modified viscous fan, 85C ALL THE TIME. If you use a M104 fan blade and the tropical viscous clutch, (it will bolt up) I bet the results would be the same as the external SPAL fan. If so, the cost is about $140 for the fan clutch, and a used fan blad is about $25. The SPAL fan and adjustable thermostat is about $195. The SPAL fan is definitely loud, but not as loud as the ROAR of the fully locked-up M119 viscous fan, also you cannot hear SPAL from inside the car. I would try the CH/resistor mod first. If you need more cooling, consider the M104 tropcial fan (clutch and fan blade), and change the value of the CH/resistor mod so it kicks in at 100C, OR remove the viscous fan and install a 2300+ CFM puller fan and adjustable thermostat. If you don't care about HP loss, just do the bimetallic viscous fan mod. This will keep things cool ALL THE TIME, but definintely additional stress on the pulley & associated bearings. The SPAL fan is on it's own relay and fuse, and on the hot days when the A/C aux. fans are running AND the SPAL fan as well, I have NOT experienced any blown fuses or welded relays, including during startup after a hot run. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E Last edited by ke6dcj; 08-14-2002 at 03:17 AM.
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#35
08-14-2002, 06:29 AM
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Timing retard?
Neil, do you know by how many degrees the engine timing is retarded with increasing temperature? I read somewhere that for our 104s the timing is retarded by 5 deg for every 10C rise.
I ask because my motor feels more lively now that my temps are 85-95C only. Perhaps the fan HP is offset by the timing gain? I remember from reading a lot of old posts that the torque monster M119 engine is very sensitive to temperature. I think the tropical clutch is engaging around 80C. Twice I shut off the motor when the gauge was reading 80C and the fan was still free-wheeling. When I shut off at gauge=90C the fan is locked. Last edited by BongC36; 08-14-2002 at 06:42 AM.
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#36
08-14-2002, 11:16 AM
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Jim, Neil, and Bong- - excellent information!
Thanks for sharing your tech expertise and real world experience. fwiw- Last weekend, we enjoyed a trip from San Jose to the CA Central Valley trouble-free in the E500 (41.7k- Pearl Black/Black): >over 300 miles (w/ CT Piggy Tail) >MB coolant + 1 bottle Water Wetter >Fresh Penzoil LongLife 15W-40 dino/ OEM filter >Chevron Super 91 Octane >95-109 degree ambient dry temps >90% highway/ 5% City/ 5% stop-and-go freeway parking lot >a/c on 100% of the time, climate control @ 72 degrees =coolant temp per gauge reading-held consistent @ 95 (low speed fan noise not detectable from inside the cabin) >>I do pop the hood when parked (as often as I can) to help that pizza oven heat escape The previous weekend, we enjoyed another enjoyable road trip trouble free from San Jose to Bear Valley/Yosemite in the E320 Coupe (105k- Black Opal/ Gray): >350 miles (no CT mod), w/ some mountain ascent >new Behr rad/ MB coolant/ NO Water Wetter >Fresh Castrol 20W-50 dino/ OEM filter >Chevron Super 91 Octane >4 passengers + full trunk >100% highway: ambient temps 80-90 degress >a/c on 100%, climate control set @ 72 =coolant temp per gauge reading never went over 100 degrees best regards -fad
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#37
08-14-2002, 11:43 PM
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Let's not quit now . . . .
Look what I found today!
 My car always warmed up slowly even in warm weather. So decided to check the Tstat today. Replaced it with a 80C TStat and when I had time to look at the removed one, that's what I saw. It stays open about 1/16" (the reflecting light makes it look larger) so that explains the slow warming. It opens fully at 185F and beyond but closes down to be open as shown With the old Tstat, my car would run at around 85C until going into stop-go traffic, then it goes to 95C. With the 'proper' working Tstat, the car warms up quickly and now runs about 90C. On the road it holds at 85 - 90C. Exiting from high speed driving, into stop-go, it goes to 95 - 98C. Wondering if I should put the old one back in??? If this was Buffalo, then I wouldn't say that but here in SD, it's pretty warm. Comments, please? Last edited by JimF; 08-15-2002 at 10:51 AM.
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#38
08-15-2002, 10:29 AM
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Jim- I would replace it with a new Factory MB thermostat (just in case the new one causes problems, your dealer will have to honor replacing it (parts & labor) for one year).
It might be a good time to change out all the hoses and radiator, or at least give them a good inspection. Someone else mentioned drilling a couple of small holes in the thermostat to keep the temps down. Perhaps this is why you had different and better results in your cooling mod than most of us . . . :-) neil Last edited by ke6dcj; 08-15-2002 at 11:36 AM.
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#39
08-15-2002, 11:00 AM
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Hi Jim-
(though not an engineer, scientist, or tech) just wondering: ....if the M119 combustion/ injection/ O2 / cooling/ lubrication systems operate happily (equally no problemo) in the 85-105 range- - then perhaps the best case scenario (Ans) lies in recognizing +/- wear and tear issues between the alternatives: >will the +3-5 or so increase in average operating temps (new t-stat) over time yield a signifant increase wear and tear of the vehicle? ie engine, engine compartment inhabitants, chassis, etc. >will the slower warm up time (richer fuel condition) over time effectively yield a higher wear and tear on the motor and/or assoc. components? ie Cat/ O2 sensor I've observed the E500 warm up to full op temp within 3-4 blocks of driving (sitting overhight), and the E320 Coupe warms up to full op temp within 6-9 blocks of inital driving (sitting overnight) South Bay SF Bay Area morning temps are in the 55-65 degrees. imho- seems like I'd rather have a T-stat in use that is able to close and open fully to ensure that the systems have the full capacity to work together as designed....in either case, you have the cooling harness to regulate on the most critial upper end temps. Last I read your sight (also recognizing) you've adjusted your coolant to compensate for more of the SD climates/ summer use ie ~60/40% H20/Antifreeze/Water Wetter- - so you've got all the bells and whistles and icing on the cake. Best regards and looking forward to reading more of your thoughts. -fad
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#40
08-15-2002, 06:10 PM
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Some clarification . . . .
After "burping" the system this morning, the temps are more like what they were with the old tstat.
Had drained most all of the old af/water out of the sytem since I was going to replace the tstat. What a stinken job trying to get that small 3" elbow hose back into place. Taking the car out today, here's what I measured: 1) initial warmup is still quicker; from dead cold to 80C in about 5 minutes. 2) driving on the freeway; car held between 85 to 88C. 3) going into stop/go from freeway speeds, temp goes to 95C. All of this is with A/C on. About the only difference is the quicker warmup. Yes, I use 60/40 (w/af) ratio with 1 bottle of WW. Without A/C: 1) same 2) car runs 82 - 83C 3) temp to 86 - 87C Last edited by JimF; 08-16-2002 at 05:28 PM.
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#41
08-15-2002, 06:23 PM
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tnx for you comments. . . .
Neil: Agree about using a "factory" operational part rather than my old part. The engine holds at a more constant temp than it did before albeit a little higher. But that's good!
Did replace the upper, lower hoses while I did this. Although they looked ok (no bulges, etc.) it was done anyway since i was "in-there" Drilling holes is akin to using the old tsat: provided some 'blow-by" but that defeats the tstat operation. -fad: will the +3-5 or so increase in average operating temps (new t-stat) over time yield a signifant increase wear and tear of the vehicle? ie engine, engine compartment inhabitants, chassis, etc. Since the temps are more constant albeit only a few degrees,, it should be 'better' for the engine. will the slower warm up time (richer fuel condition) over time effectively yield a higher wear and tear on the motor and/or assoc. components? ie Cat/ O2 sensor The answer is in the question. Slower warmup w/ richer fuel WILL result in higher wear and tear on the engine, O2 sensor and cat. Good point! Tnx for your comments. Last edited by JimF; 08-16-2002 at 12:01 AM.
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#42
08-16-2002, 05:38 PM
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Viscous Fan Clutch . . . .
While visiting my tech today(Exclusive Motors), he gave me VFC that he had. Wow, what a nice present!
 Now about the VFC itself: 1) Can anybody explain how these really work?? 2) What's the little pin below the copper strip that goes in under pressure? 3) Is that the bimet element? What's it do? And how does it do it? Don't have an 8mm drive socket so will pick one up today, do the Stu Ritter mod and test it tonight. Looking forward to it. Last edited by JimF; 08-20-2002 at 01:09 AM.
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#43
08-17-2002, 01:11 AM
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Neil said . . "I did Stu's mod, and boy can you hear that fan roar.
ROAR . . . It sounds like a jet plane!!! While driving, even though the S car is fairly well sound deadened, you can still hear a "wind type" roar. In the driveway, my wife reved it up. At 500rpm, it just pleasant; a little loud but ok. At 2000rpm, it sounds like a cat 5 hurricane! It was just after sunset and while doing this, and a small miller fluttered by the front of the car. . . say bye-bye! Gone! As far as temps are concerned, take about 5 - 6degs C from my previous post. It holds at about 83C on the road; goes to 88 - 89C in stop/go immediately after exit of high speed. If just driving around in stop/go, it stays about 85C or below. Well, if this could be modified to cut-out at, say 2000rpm, it would be a super mod. In my opinion, it's not needed after that point. Even 1500prm would be ok. I assume that the puller fan noise is no more offensive than the running of the car's aux fans??? The noise produced by this mod to the VFC negates its use even though the cooling is great.
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#44
08-17-2002, 01:32 AM
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Jim- you've been a very busy boy!
Incredible how effective the stock fan is when it locks up, eh!? So are you going to keep it installed? Did you notice that loss in power and acceleration? The SPAL 16-inch is of a different pitch than the dual-aux. fans, but I'm used to it. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E
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#45
08-17-2002, 02:20 AM
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glad you showed. . .
Yes, my tech gave me a nice Xmas present. The cooling is great but the noise is tuff to take!
Yes, I noticed the power loss but I think the 'noise' is the killer. Not sure I'll keep it on. Have to go to Orange country tomorrow, so maybe I'll leave it on for the trip. I still don't understand how you (and Stu) did the mod. Do you have a pic of it?? Sure would like to see it if you do. If it could be 'tuned' to cut out at 1500rpm, that would be just perfect. What do you think? Also does anybody have answers to 'how-it-operates'???
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