Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum > Technical Information and Support > Performance Paddock

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 08-17-2002, 04:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
This is my SWAG (silly wild ass guess):

The bi-metallic strip keep the pin pushed down thereby keeping a valve between the viscous resevoir and the engagement chamber closed-off.

At a given temperature, the bi-metallic strip bends up (I know it this for a fact), and allows the pin to move up, letting the viscous flow.

Within the engagement chamber is a centrifugal valve that is normally closed. At the trigger RPM, the centrifugal valve opens allowing the fluid to return to the resevoir.

=================
What don't you understand on how we did the mod?

The little-screw just pre-bends the bi-metallic strip UP simulating it being heated.

:-) neil
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 08-18-2002, 02:48 AM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
Just got back from San Juan Capistrano

for my son's birthday. Went to Cafe Mozart and the food is absolutley great. They had elk and alligator!! Yes, the elk is a little gamey for my taste but the alligator is fantastic!

Re the VFC mod: removed it since the noise was just too much.

Since I haven't received ANY replies as to how it operates, that tells me that nobody really KNOWS for sure. Based on what I thought when I first 'touched' the real thing, it does operate mostly as you say.

Tested the bimet strip today and found the 'bending' temp. What is needed is a 'different' temperature strip; something around 90 to 95C (it's a swag at this point). Must measure the coupling coefficient in the engine compartment but once that's defined, it will define what the actual "bending" point of the bimet strip should be.

That known, then a new bimet strip can be fabed that will operate the VFC at a "usable" point for MB cars. To my thinking, it should operate at around 90C. This assumes the coupling loss is about 5C. It probably is much more, so that needs to be quantified.

But for this discussion, assume that it's 5C. So any comments about what the temp should be????

Here's pic of Stu Ritter's original mod to the VFC:
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

Last edited by JimF; 09-01-2002 at 12:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-18-2002, 12:43 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
Check this thread out . . .

Looks like BongC36 has found the part we all want! Read his thread: High engine temps SOLVED!

Seems as though Sachs makes just such a part. Here's their website: http://webcat.sachs.de/

It's not easiest site to navigate but with a litte work, you can get a part number for a replacement VFC. But can't find a "technical manual" or pdf to see the cutin /cutput temps. Bong's part seems to lock up at around 90C, so that seems ideal.
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

Last edited by JimF; 08-18-2002 at 02:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 08-18-2002, 12:51 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Florida / N.H.
Posts: 8,777
Wonder what this Mod is ??

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/features/gmob/bentley_gmob_new.product.announcement.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:10 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
I've talked to the guys at SACHS USA, and the bi-metallic strip is not available seperately.

Also, they don't "list" a "tropical" version of the viscous-fan clutch that fits (4-bolt mount) the bigger/stronger M119 fan.

SACHS USA doesn't even have the cut-in values, so I've email SACHS Germany, but haven't heard back.

Our local dealer had the M104/M103 "tropical" viscous fan clutch in stock, HOWEVER, it's a 3-bolt mount, so it won't work with our 4-bolt M119 fan.

I noticed that the pin had heatsink grease between it and bi-metallic strip. Why, I don't know?

Arthur- the new W124 Bently Book was written by Stu Ritter, so it's his mod in there. Guess who's AMG wagon is also in there . . .

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:49 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
According to the MB 400E/500E Introduction service, the viscous fan clutch was changed to cut-in at 82C.

Per Stu (and posted in the beginning):
"I found that the viscous coupling wasn't working as it should. I went through three of them, and guess what, they all worked the same way. I discussed this with the chief MBUSA engineer. He said that is the way they are supposed to work.
The fan clutch wouldn't engage until the strip saw 107C which really meant 110C air going through which meant the radiator saw 115-120C. If you listen carefully to the fan you will see how quickly it cuts out. It only locks on when you get up around 120-125C which is really bad. This little mod takes care of the problem and counters the factories pathetic engineering."

In short, the bi-metallic strip's trigger temp needs to be dropped down; MB engineers dropped-the-ball; and the 400E/500E viscous fan clutch (119.200.0122) supposedly is already MB's official "tropical" fan clutch.

Anyone got a source to make us some bi-metallic strips. . .

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 08-18-2002, 01:59 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
Good info . . . .

Sent an email to Sachs "techinical" information center, so we will see what we see. Probably nothing!

Art, saw that link while browsing yesterday. Tnx Neil, saved $39! But maybe if your AMG is there . . . . .

Found some bimet strip sources and will check them. My idea is to make a 'replacement' strip w/ different temp cutin.

Neil: so you are stating that the Sachs pn 2100 013 031 is an OEM replacement part, not the 'tropical' (lowered temp cutin) version? You have checked this out?
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 08-18-2002, 02:10 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
The more posts I see, the more questions it generates!

Neil: i take it that this an excerpt from a MB tech document but it doesn't make sense.

The visco-fan housing was modified, thereby moving the fan 8mm closer to the engine.

What kind of Smoke-&-Mirrors is this. The bimet strip is on the radiator side, so since it must bend to start the clutch action, what good is moving it closer to the engine? What am i missing here?

The cover was adapted to the modified housing and has an open cover in the front. More S&M! The cover is a plastic like material and is already 'open'. Won't do a thing!
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

Last edited by JimF; 08-18-2002 at 02:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 08-18-2002, 03:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
This excerpt is from the MBNA's document, "Model Year 1992: Models 124.034/036 (400E/500E) Introduction into Service"

I agree, a lot of BS, that just doesn't make sense.

Since no one at SACHS North America (NA) can't confirm the cut-in/trigger temps, I can't say for sure if 2100 013 031 is a "tropical version" or not.

The following viscous-fan clutches have a good probability of bolting-up to the 4-mount fan, but again need to find the cut-in/trigger temp for the bi-metallic strip.

STOCK 500E (W124); SL600 (R129), SL60-AMG (R129)
SACHS 2100013032 cross-ref: 119 200 01 22

STOCK S500 (W140), 500SL (R129), E50 AMG (W210)
SACHS 2100013031 cross-ref: 119 200 00 22

SACHS 2100015031 for V12 R129 and W140

E55 AMG (W210)
SACHS 2100027031 cross-ref: 113 200 02 22 / 119 200 02 22

E420T-4matic (W210)
SACHS 2100027131 replacement for SACHS 2100027031 cross-ref: 113 200 02 22 / 119 200 02 22

:-) neil
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 08-18-2002, 11:41 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
another idea . . . .

Neil, you said that the local dealer had the M104/M103 "tropical" viscous fan clutch in stock.

Question: "will the bimet strip from the 'tropical' version fit the VFC for the M119 engine? If you have actually seen one, you may be able to answer that.

I've sent a bunch of email to Sachs Europe trying to find the cut-in temps these units.
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-19-2002, 01:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
Unfortunately, the M103/M104 tropical bi-metallic strip is not the right shape, nor is it big enough to re-shape to the size needed for the M119 viscous clutch.

:-( neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 08-19-2002, 01:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Florida / N.H.
Posts: 8,777
That 1577 code # is a popular industrial strip .

http://www.shivalikbimetals.com/design.htm
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 08-19-2002, 02:15 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
I saw that

and sent them an info email. All the way to India!!
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 08-19-2002, 08:48 PM
JimF's Avatar
'94 S500: only 793 sold!
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,925
OK, need to 'fess- up' . . .

When I said that I tried the mod, I really "simulated" it!

As an engineer, we do things that give answers without having to do the full bananna. We do that by simulating it! So too with this.

Since my 8mm drive was too 'deep' to fit in the small area between the radiator and VFC, I used bailing wire (coat hanger) and lock the fan to the bolts on the fan pulley. BTW, if anyone is interested in this mod, this is a good way to see if you like it without all of the hassle removing the VFC. There's enough room to reach down and work the wire around the fan blades and bolts.

If you try this, MAKE SURE THAT YOU BEND THE WIRE ENDS AROUND TO FORM A KNOT BOTH ON THE BLADES AND BOLTS. THEY WILL COME LOOSE IF NOT DONE!

I used the wire in two (2) places; one on each side of the four bolts. It is very strong. Then took the car up to highways speeds of 80mph (about 2800rpm).

However, the air-noise was VERY loud (look back 16 posts!) and it is NOT the same when the proper mod is done. Yes, it's loud but there's a different timber to the noise done with bailing wire.

At 650prm (idle) it's almost not noticable. If you didn't know that it was there, you would not suspect or hear any objectionable noise. At 2000rpm, it was just a loud air rush.

So bottom line, it is a keeper. The picture posted (back 12 posts) is what I used. I made this little difference: the screw is adjusted so that the "pin" is not fully out. Pin fully out is full engagement of VFC.

What exact difference this makes (if any!) is not clear at this writing. It's a good mod. Tnx to Stu Ritter and Neil for bringing it to our attention.

I'm still working to replace the bms with a lower temp version.

I've added a section to my web page showing more details.
http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/MB_S500.html Menu #19.
__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

Last edited by JimF; 08-20-2002 at 02:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 08-19-2002, 11:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Florida / N.H.
Posts: 8,777
<>

I don't think the strip has anything to do with the high RPM cut- off..
That should be centrifugal force of the viscous fluid....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page