synthetic vs. dino - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

stephenson · #16 07-31-2002, 08:15 PM

Well, things are looking up. Five years ago 50% of respondents would have been suspicious of synthetics. Ten years ago father's warnings would have been mentioned. Twenty years ago most would have suspected a commie plot. Progress.

The question of whether engines have been opened up is easy. Sure ... and by the trucking industry with test vehicles with several hundreds of thousands of miles. Lots of independent data on this.

The question of an engine "liking" a particular oil is interesting, but it would seem like the technical issue is simply whether or not an appropriate weight synthetic is being used - same issue as with dino oils (would semi-syns be half way ... "like, y'know, I like you for a friend only?" ... I just don't know).

Particulates are an issue. I got a feeling the Europeans that drive their diesel trucks for 30k-50k clicks between changes (with oil monitoring analysis) have worked it out.

Don't like the sound ... hmmm ... sounds again, like an issue of viscosity. Or, the more metallic sound may be an engine performing better ... I don't know.

Sounds like we are down to cost. This is a very good question and is worthy of lots of discussion as everyone's circumstances are different. Some research and analysis would need to done over extensive periods of time to be able to conclude, clearly, there is a substantive difference between synthetics and high quality dino (dino is MUCH better now than it used to be).

How about a pledge to never discuss this topic again? Nah, what would I do at night if I couldn't drone on about the advantages of synthetic? I know ... I could get a life.

#17 08-01-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stephenson
Don't like the sound ... hmmm ... sounds again, like an issue of viscosity. Or, the more metallic sound may be an engine performing better ... I don't know.

Sorry about the vague "sound" reference, I guess it's all in the ear. haha BTW, the syn Mobil 1 oil rating I was using at the time was 15w50w.

#18 08-01-2002, 09:49 PM

Someone mentioned that they did not know of anyone running 200K miles without cracking open the engine..Here's my story.

My 209,000 BMW 528e has been running Amsoil synthetic for three years and 66,000 miles. All dino before that. Over the last 66,000 miles I have changed the oil only 4 times and the last batch was in the car for 26,000 miles. I did change the filter every 7500 miles, had the oil analyzed every 7500, and topped up with fresh Amsoil every 3000 miles or so as my car uses a little oil. Wear metal numbers were always on the low normal side, even on the 26000 mile stuff that had oxidized about 50% and began to thicken as the oil weakened. On top of that, I had the valve cover off a week ago for a valve adjustment and a new timing belt and the mechanic reported it was very clean and no visible wear on the camshaft or followers.

Sure I pay a little more for Amsoil than dino oil but at 15000 mile drain intervals with a filter change at 7500 miles and a couple of qts. of top up oil, I am actually saving money over taking the car to the lube shop every 3000 miles. Not to mention the value of my time. Also, there are ways to buy Amsoil at the same price as Mobil-1 (send me a message if you want to learn how) or Syntec or any other off the shelf synthetic.

I agree there is nothing wrong with dino oils for 3000 mile drain intervals in moderate climates. But if you want to extend your drain intervals, live in an extremely cold or extremely hot climate, and want to spend less money and time on oil changes, synthetic oils do prove their worth.

Don
www.syntheticoils.net/dstevens

ItalianBenz · #19 08-02-2002, 01:09 AM

My own personal preference. My 500E 119 engine does not like mobil one. I used it several times in my with 90K + its noisy and bar level goes down somewhat. Whay works for me
is Vavoline racing 20-50. Engine sounds nice. I change my oil every 3000. I do it regular I have access to my shop I guess. Whats the use putting something that cost $7 Qt X 8.5 and drain it every 3K. I feel for newer engines its fine. When Mercedes design these early monster of motors you didnt see a snythetic decal on the radiator support.
Or else it would of been there. The technology was certainly there for synth.

omegabenz · #20 08-02-2002, 03:55 AM

I agree with ItalianBenz. I think that the Valvoline VR1 20W-50 is great for 117 and 119 motors. My friend used mobil 1 in his 2.6 190E and it burned like a quart every 90 miles. The newer engines are made for it. The older engines aren't.

Michael · #21 08-02-2002, 12:12 PM

I personally think you cannot make a unilateral comment that M119s don't "like" synthetics. Mine was switched from Dino at 43k over to Mobil 1 15W-50 every 5-6k miles. Runs fabulous, burns no oil, and doesn't leak (can you hear me knocking on burl?)

Run what you like, but based upon my experience (and 450k miles running Mobil 1 in 3 different cars) synthetic will work just fine in most engines

-fad · #22 08-02-2002, 01:10 PM

oh, the noise?

...I ran Castrol full Syn (15W-50) in my '86 Alfa and '88 BMW and....valve lash (sound) did appear to be more noticable/ don't remember any leaks occuring but switched back to Castrol dino 20W-50.

-fad

stephenson · #23 08-02-2002, 02:37 PM

I wonder how long this will be a debateble topic? How many of you are telling your kids to use synthetic lubricants to: increase oil change intervals, save oil and reduce pollution, save fuel, increase engine life, and better prepare the car for even the next owner?

So many questions.

Does an engine sounding good translate to using the right oil? I have switched 20 car engines and boats, and lawnmowers, and tractors to synthetics ... do they sound different than before ... yeah, maybe ... does it mean anything in terms of lubrication performance?

Is Valvoline racing 20-50 any different from any other 20-50? How much is it different? Does it cost more? What's in the name? Why not just use unbranded 20-50 if it has the same stuff in it? Does it have the same stuff in it? How can you tell? Did you evaluate various brands or did someone you respect tell you to use that brand? (my favorite is the folks using high test gas because its "better" than regular ...)

Does pressure decrease in oil mean less lubrication or is it relatively reflecting of how easy it is to push the oil through the passages?

Putting in something more expensive than something else does not mean it isn't an incredibly correct thing to do ...

Synthetics are $3.5/qt, not $7/qt (except Amsoil, which may truly be investing on the margin) ... differential in performance is proven ... argument that has bad info isn't an argument is it?

Is a 5L motor a monster or just another generally well designed V8 with issues?

Does the predictable human nature of preference for slow change reflect itself in engine design (or, maybe toothbrush design)?

Was synthetic oil a Commie plot in 1970?

Did your Dad suspect it was snake oil in 1975?

Do most people understand the chemistry and metallugical aspects of the debate?

Technology for synthetics has been around since jet engines hit the stage ... had no choice there ... so, it was developed (actually, seems like I remember Nazis developed alternatives early in WWII?). Cost was the issue - and, CHANGING DEEP SEATED HISTORICAL BELIEFS (not technical beliefs).

Cost continues to be the only debatable topic. Gotta work the numbers here, though ... and, you must extend the drain intervals for several others reasons - the best reason is that: it probably doesn't matter whether you drain at 3000 or 10000 with synthetics.

ItalianBenz · #24 08-02-2002, 09:52 PM

What are you the typo king. So I made a mistake Synth oil isn't 7.00 a qt,correct me please! geezz. Compared to what alot of MB engine are these days ,yes thats what I call it a Monster,meaning the whole package the 500E package. So keep doing you research who ever you are!

stephenson · #25 08-03-2002, 01:54 PM

Sorry. I figured you were using expensive synthetics ... they are available for $7 a quart.

#26 08-04-2002, 02:30 PM

What the .....

Stephenson, reread the first post. It clearly asks what the disadvantages are to synthetic, in my case I give my opinion flavored with my experiences as do we all. If you don't enjoy the post, don't visit.

In regards to my "sound" comment, maybe you have never heard the bottom end of a engine go bad, if you had you would not be bring this "noise" thing up. Metal smacking metal is not a good thing, period. The oil provides lubrication of coarse, but it also fills space between metals i.e. bearings. I think syn does not behave the same way as dino in higher mile engine, especially if the switch to syn came late in the engines life. The dino may have let some avoidable wear occur.

If you want to run it, fine... go ahead, but I don't care to hear my bearings slowly beating themselves out of round. This may be an exaggeration, but I think everyone hear knows thats my style of communication, so what.

Everyone have a nice day.

tom woolner · #27 08-04-2002, 06:57 PM

Well, after mulling over all the replys, pro and con, din vs synthetic, and especially Ross's comments I've decided to stick with dino, but change oil and filter every 2500 miles. up from every 3750. That way, every third change falls on a 7500 mile service interval. Is there evidence that changing it more frequently than every 2500 miles will make a difference? I live in the SF Bay Area (moderate temperature), and my driving is a mix of city and short (8-35 mile) freeway runs.
Tom

#28 08-04-2002, 08:08 PM

Tom,

Having spent far too many hours studying used oil analysis results, I don't know that there is any evidence that suggests changing dino oil any less than 3000 miles does any measurable good. In fact, to be brutally frank I think you would be wasting your time and money the to change your oil more frequently than 3000 mile intervals. Not to mention unneccesarily poluting the environment with used oil and filters, both of which have plenty of life left in them at 2500 miles.

Being an Amsoil dealer, I am in the camp that is diametrically opposed to short drain intervals and I might argue that long drain intervals is the way to go. But, I do not want to start any battles here. I suggest those who are interetsed take a few minutes to view the following link and formulate your own opinions.

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100060 link to oil analysis results

This gentleman has spent countless hours studying used oil analysis reports and the spreadsheet quite clearly shows that most any off the shelf oil can safely go far further than 3000 mile drain intervals in most any car, new or old. I think the data also clearly shows that many synthetics can go even farther with no appreciable difference in engine wear.

So my point is, to your question, no I do not believe there is any benefit to changng your oil at 2500 miles other than your own piece of mind. Second, used oil analysis on your oil, in your car, with you driving habits, is THE only way to determine what is the best drain interval for your car. People can argue their opinions for hours and hours but until one has used oil analysis results of different oils over different drain intervals, all one has is opinion.

For info about reasonably priced ($20) oil analysis for common folk, look at the following links.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/g.html

http://intershop.amsoil.com/cgi-bin/Amsoil.storefront/3caa2df700696530271bd1f0e3f006ff/Catalog/1183

Don
www.syntheticoils.net/dstevens

tom woolner · #29 08-11-2002, 12:01 PM

Has any one used Oberg oil filters. Overkill?

Tom

yhliem · #30 08-20-2002, 01:11 PM

Ok, it seems as if there are a few people taking this particular debate a little too seriously.

the bottom line is that BOTH option are GENERALLY viable. be aware that there are some caveats:

as a result of a synth's ability to NOT breakdown as readily at the molecular level, it can be made into a multigrade that spans a greater range than a dino THEREFORE a synth is considerably thinner.

this can be a disadvantage to older engines with wear as the cjournals and bearing clearances are bound to be greater in size. also seas which may have seemed fine, may actually appear to leak more, again ans a result of the smaller synth molecule (same principle as the hydrogen vs. helium debate for the dirigibles)

Synth, however, will allow you to extend the interval between oil changes due to its resistance to thermal breakdown.

HOWEVER.... (follow my logic here)

one of the reasons that one changes oil, aside from the fact that the oil has broken down, is to remove the metal filings which are suspended within the oil and are the result of wear.

if you leave oil in for 6,000 miles you will have TWICE the amount of filings floating around acting like an abrasive.

There will be those that say that since synth offers better lubrication the amount of wear will be less and therefore you're able to go longer. Ok, if you choose to believe that.

This is one of those things that seems to come down to personal opinions and beliefs because, let's face it, as car enthusiasts, we're a skeptical lot when it comes to "miracle cures" for this, that or the next thing.

Ok, synth is used in racing. you cannot compare it to a daily driver because a race engine is typically rebuilt after each race ANYWAYS, they go through extremes beyond which dinos can effectively cope and also far beyond what our cars will ever see period.

It all comes down to what YOU are comfortable with.
I, personally, am comfortable with changing my 5 liters of dino oil every three months. i am not willing to use synth because I would not exentd my intervals anyways, and going to synth would therefore, be a waste of money in MY application.

The moral of the story is, do your research, understand the science behind it, not just the testimonials and what Jeff Nascar, Jimmy Cart, or Michael Formula1 say; (Don't forget that they get PAID to say good things about whatever logo is plastered all over their cars.) and make up your own mind as to what works FOR YOU.

And furthermore, don't take it personally if someone prefers one over the other.

Cheerio!