Hello everyone. I just wanted to post this message to introduce myself and to say how wonderful this website is. My name is Peter Smith and I am a mechanical engineer for DaimlerChrysler. I recently picked up a new toy. It's a pearl black/black '92 500E with just over 100K. There is no paintwork on the car and the interior is like new. Needless to say I'm very pleased with it. Anyway, I would love to hear from any 500E owners and anyone who has had experience with modifying one. Presently, the Renntech catalog is my bible, but has anyone had experience with Eurotech and their supercharger kit for M119 motors? That's about it for now. Thanks.

Welcome! It's amazing; EVERY 500E owner wants more power! There are a whole bunch of threads on modifying 500Es, so I'd search around a bit here on the site. I've not read much about any M119 supercharger kits (although one of the moderators here, Lee, was looking into swapping his air pump for a blower). Where would they fit the thing? Not a lot of room under there, as I'm sure you've noticed.

Likely the first place to start would be to improve the cooling...the cooler you keep an M119 the more power it gives you/more correctly that it doesn't take away from you (supposedly you lose about 2 degrees of ignition advance for every few degrees your car's water temp's over 100 degrees C.) I run RedLine Watter Wetter and think it dropped the temp anout 5 degrees.

Otherwise my car's bone stock (except bigger sneakers to keep the ASR at bay:245/45-17 Michelin Pilots on AMG 5 spoke rims)and I plan to keep it largely that way. I don't think there's much to gain without either supercharging the motor or swapping it out for a 6.0/6.2/6.5 from various tuners. I've seen 450 DIN HP advertised, but heck if you're gonna pay nearly $20k for a motor it should have some serious twist, no?

Best of luck with your car...mine's Almandine Red/Black interior and goes like stink!

P.S. If you're an "insider", any info you can gather and share about these amazing cars would be much appreciated. And if you can come up with a cheap ASR-defeat switch, you'll be our hero!

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Best regards, Michael
'92 500E
'88 300TE

Hi,

I am sure you will find it just like home here. Ppl here are very nice and willing to help. It's a great pleasure to see another MB lover. Congrat. on your new car.

As 500E owners, Lee and Michael will sure be more than glad to help.

M119 engines need to be cool. They usually run at 90 - 110 degree, but if there's a way to keep it down to 80 - 85, you would see the difference right a way...

Happy Motoring...
Andy Kuo

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• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Moonstone Grey/Black Leather
  
• Blue/Red Headlights
  
• Xenon-Look Foglights
  

ICQ#26950002

Peter,
Welcome and congratulations! If you search the past threads on this BBS you should get a ton of solid information regarding these amazing cars.

As far as mods go, all the big tuners do basically the same stuff. That would be bore/stroke the engine to 6.0-6.5 liters which is good for 400-450HP + a crapload of torque, either V12 brakes or Brembo/Alcon/etc under 17" or 18" wheels, many cooling mods on engine/tranny/etc. I'm not familiar with eurotech, but everyone I've talked to or heard from says supercharging a W124 M119 is not readily do-able. I've thought of a way, but it would take LOTS of development.

Michael is also right in regards to keeping the car cool. The 500E's gain and lose mad power based on ambient and engine temps. Water Wetter is a good first step but if your car has over 100K on it there may be some other areas to look at first. A) check the electric fans...your (or one of our shop forum techs) should be able to tell you how to "jump" them on for supplemental low-speed cooling. The next time you have the coolant changed have them run the "citric acid powder flush" though the engine. (find more info on that in MB DOC's post in Pro's Tech tips on cooling) One mod that has been kicked around was swapping the clutch fan for a similar sized high speed electric fan. When we say temp makes a big difference here is an example. I've timed my 92 500E in deplorable ambient/engine temps at 6.4 sec 0-60 with the 1/4 mile coming in the mid-high 14's. On more favorable ambient conditions the same car would do 5.2 0-60 with the 1/4 in 13.6@107.5mph.

ASR is a hinderance in dragstrip use but can be a help in wet or on a roadcourse. On the cars with defeatable ASR it seems to buy you maybe 1/3 of a second 0-60. Benzmac and I think there is something going on in the brainboxes with ambient temp, engine temp, power output, and perhaps even some "silent" ASR action. Something similar to the gazillion redundancy speed limiters in the Renntech V12...

Single best mod for the car is bigger rubber. On the stock rims 235/50/16 is the max if you want to run same size front and rear. With 17" wheels and tires you can fit 245/45/17. The rears can hold wider rubber than the front. Specific sizes and whatnot should be in prior posts.

As far as really twisted power levels go...you are pretty much given a choice between a tuner 6.0-6.5 motor for $20K to $50K and/or NOS. A 150HP nitrous kit would really push the cooler temp=more power buttons not to mention cost would be in the $1000 ballpark. Granted it isn't something that can be used constantly, but heck, you can't really use the stock 500E's potential most of the time. The other major gains mod I can think of is that the tuners offer a 6-speed manual conversion for the car. Either adjust the ratios to give it shorter/closer gearing or combine with a rear diff swap for mad acceleration gains. Now if only that could be had with fingertip gear changes... (drool forming)

Search through the Shop Forum archives (search function in top right of screen). Be sure to specify all posts or those within the last year. I've not heard of Eurotech or any supercharger kits for the M119's. Please pass on any info you have for them. Welcome to the site and after you are done reviewing those past posts if you have any further questions please don't hesitate to post. Always great to hear from 500E (or any factory hot-rod owner/enthusiasts).

Hope this helps...Lee

Michael,
>And if you can come up with a cheap ASR-
>defeat switch, you'll be our hero!

In my 86 260E I had a problem with the ASD
(BTW: what's the difference of ASD and ASR)
I went to the MB dealer and they checked the
system and found that one ABS sensor does'nt
work. They did'nt have the sensor and they
said it took about 3 days to get one. The
tech who tested the ASD system asked if I
wanted to turn the system to standby mode,
so I said yes. He did something near the
battery and the system was off(bad thing was
that the ASD warning light came on). Next time when they changed the ABS sensor they
turned the system on. Too bad I did'nt saw
what the tech did, but maybe the ASR can be
turned off like that too.

One trip to dealer and your ASR problems are over:-)

MP (and others interested),

ASR is Automated Slip Control and is a more complex traction-enhancement system than ASD, which I understand is a limited slip diff that lets you know (via dash light) when it's working. ASR, at least in the case of my 500E, uses a limited slip differential (but a much less aggressive one) but reduces slip also by first reducing engine torque (changes spark timing), and if more intrervention is required it cuts back on fuel delivery. At higher speeds, the system cuts fuel first.

If no one comes up with a more comprehensive explanation that my kinda weak attempt, and you're still interested, I'll continue going thru my old editions of The Star; I know there's an article in there somewhere.

Hope this helps, if only a little!

Michael

How do you like your new tires and wheels?

Tommy

ASD is pretty much a locking differential. It sends power to both back wheels but if there equally bad traction back there...

ASR reduces engine power by closing the throttle, taking out spark timing, and applying the applicable rear brake(s). You can pretty much floor it on loose gravel and not get spin. (you will proceed at a snail's pace though) ASR would also seem to have a bit of a "memory". If you hit the gas hard enough to invoke ASR it seems like the next few times you toe into the gas you get reduced throttle. This is well after the ASR light is out and you are out of the previous situation. Just something I've noticed on several W124 M119's.

FYI if the brainbox reads that the ASR is out of order on a 500E your car will go into "limp mode" which is far worse than any antics of ASR. You basicially get 2/3rds or nothing throttle (light switch on/off nature of gas pedal) and the tranny behaves wierd as heck. The throttle and ASR are so intertwined it isn't funny. ASR defeat isn't as simple as cutting a wire or pulling a fuse.

Hope this helps...Lee

The reason is because your car has EA which is electronic accelerator. It is integrated into the ASR..If one is down, the other is too.

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Benzmac:
1981 280GE SWB
1987 16V
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
SERVICE MANAGER FOR 14 BAY FACILITY
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 8 YRS
PARTNER IN MERCEDESSHOP.COM

hello..
congrats on your newly aquired 500E. i was so close on a 94 E500 with 63,000 miles but it was hard to go to florida to check it out. instead, i got the E500's little brother, a 1995 C36 AMG. i really enjoy my car. you'll love the 500E if not already. it is a best. i do admit that i wish i had a V8 instead since i feel nothing on earth sounds and feels as good as a V8, but the look of the C36 also caught my attention since i felt it was a tad bit more progressive.

this site is great. lee and benzmac are the dudes!! and everyone else i meet here are really helpful and cool too...take care and best of luck...

whan

Congrats on you new purchase!

re: the cooling issue. Has anyone tried one of the larger radiators that are advertised in Rennetechmercedes.com or bekkers?

I can vouch for the cooling issue. There really is a big hp loss as the temp rises. I think my 500E is making best power in the range of 65-75degrees.

Though I never installed one of the "oversize" radiators in the 500E, I was told by more than one tuner that they only really help high-speed cooling. For improving engine temp while stuck in traffic they will not do much I'm told. The 500E's OEM radiator is pretty much as high and wide as possible. You can only get away with making it deeper F to R a little bit. As Benzmac recommended to me once...when stuck in traffic rev the engine to approx 2K rpm and hold it there. This spins the clutch fan many times faster than idle and draws more air through the radiator. Of course, this only does any good if you are stuck in traffic but it did help in my experience. Going over 2K rpm really wont help as the clutch fan disengages at higher rpms. An clutch fan sized electric fan MIGHT help but have not tried that yet. Granted it would be sacrilege to do this to a 500E but...I always wondered what a series of vents (ala W210) would do to the underhood temp of a 500E. Even when the engine was running around 85 degrees C, the whole underhood would be so hot you would need gloves to touch anything, even hours later....

Eric, my 92 500E always seemed to run best in the 40-45 F range. Especially when the engine temp was 75-80 degrees C. (judging by G'Tech acceleration info and butt dyno readings anyhow) When the engine temp gets over 100 (then in increments progressively higher) the brainbox takes out timing in 2 degree increments. Between the percentage loss due to hot air being less dense and the timing being taken out, it is theoretically possible to lose more than 1/3 total power.

Always fun talking 500E stuff...Lee

PS smithpll, did you ever find the contact info on the Eurotech supercharger kit for M119's? (or other benz for that matter) Thanks...

Lee,

Maybe the illustrious Turbo Zets could add performance to the 500E after all? We simply just use them to exhaust underhood heat build up instead of their original intent? haha.

In my car you can feel the heat coming out from the engine bay if you hold your hand out the window. I can't help thinking how much wasted power that is.

Anyhow one other idea is to change the point at which the dual electric fans come on. Now that mine are fixed, them seem to come on around 80 degrees (indicated).

Finally there is the old warplane water injection idea. Isn't this supposed to help in cooling? I've seen water injection kits in the speed shops....any thoughts?

Eric

Eric,
As hot as 500E's get, especially in the summer months/hot climates, you would melt the "Turbo Zets". The electric fans could also be wired to a switch pretty easily but that engine bay is just an oven. As far as I know, water injection serves mostly as a "poor man's intercooler". Injected with the fuel/air mix in detonation prone enviroments it delays combustion when you are having detonation problems. As with many other automotive things...too much one way or the other and you dance between calamity and nothing at all. Having the exhaust manifolds coated with some insulating substance might help. (just an idea) Combine that with a series of vents in the undertray and hood to promote cross ventilation/flowthrough and you might have a start. 500E's just produce so much heat (esp in ATL summer traffic) that at times it seems the only thing that will keep them cool is liquid helium. j/k

Oh well...Lee

Thanks everyone for the welcome I have received. It is great to hear from this many MB enthusiasts. I have indeed experienced the temperature dependant power on my 500E. I am wondering if there is anything to be gained by modifying the fan system. It seems like the clutch fan does not do much at an idle condition such as sitting in traffic. In such sitiuations, my temp rises until about 100 - 105 C until the electric fans come on. It seems that they produce enough airflow to cool the motor back down, but do not engage until very high temperatures. If one were to modify or replace the temp switch for these fans to make them come on at a lower temp, then the maximum engine temp could be better regulated. If this did not produce the necessary temperature drop, then the heat exchanger (i.e radiator) could then be upgrated. Even a Renntech radiator would allow the motor to run hot if it didn't get the required airflow to carry the heat away. Has anybody tried to lower the electric fan switching point?


P.S. Lee, I contacted Eurotech the other day about the supercharger kit for the 500E. Fitment didn't seem to be a problem. It's about 520 hp at 7-8 psi. It seems to work a lot better on the 500E's motronic EFI than the 500SL CIS system. For 19K it seems like a bargain compared to a renntech motor. Of course that got me thinking about a 6.0L Renntech motor WITH 8 psi of boost coupled to a Renntech 6 speed. Now that might be fun (or sick).


Peter Smith
'92 500E