Abalto,
That of course, would be your opinion. I intend no "disrespect" towards the C36 as I own one myself. Just out of curiousity, have you driven both cars at those speeds on the street or track? 0-60 or even 1/4 mile they are similar but from that point on the 500E simply does pull much harder than the W202 AMG's do. At higher speeds acceleration becomes more of a power to aero drag ratio than power to weight. Therefore the 322HP/354lb-ft (delivered stronger in the upper RPM ranges where it is needed most in top speed runs) is far more potent than the W202 AMG's 268HP. Ask just about any 500E driver who has had their vehicle up to those speeds (and another vehicle/benz to simliar point) and they will tell you about the behavior I describe. Micheal's 500E vs wagon for instance... Also, the longer wheelbase, greater curb weight, and seemingly more stable aerodynamics of the 500's does give a more "planted" feel than a W202 AMG. Either car is leagues more stable at those speeds than 99.5% of the rest of the things out there. As far as cold numbers, I've tested both vehicles with a G-Tech and taken both vehicles to the track. Not to mention other things like "if you hit the gas at point x you are at speed y by point z" If you floor it from 60mph as you pass one freeway bride and keep it floor until you hit the next overpass that is not quite 2 miles away the 500E will be at/past 160mph while the W202 AMG cars have only hit about 135 or so. The last few mph take a long time but they still get there. That is as much power-curve as anything. The M119's pull hard right up till redline where the AMG powerplants seem to taper a bit in the last 1000rpm's before redline. If memory serves you have a C43 correct? I'm not intending any disrespect towards those cars (or any others in particular) but in some areas they simply do get outgunned. Of course, off the line and to 60mph they can give the 500E a pretty good run. All the W202 AMG's brake better, handle better (when 500E's are on stock rubber), and certainly feel more nimble. Thank you for the feedback.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Just out of curiousity, does a car pull harder at +100 mph speed if it delivers torque at higher rpm? I mean same hp & torque but torque peak delivers at diferent rpm ie 3000rpm vs 5000rpm.

P.S. HEY! Now I read Albalto's post I do feel u are putting down new generation benzs!
There is no way that a tire swap could make up for the old chassis!! I'm J/K of course^.^

Happy motoring,
ET

Just wanted to also state that I've taken my E55 to 155 with no hood flapping at all. The car was extremely solid with no floatiness at all. Would have taken it higher except that damn speed limiter. Usually taking a car to over 140 has my hands sweating but with the E55 I felt like I was still doing 110.

All this talk about "electronically-controlled speed limiters". Has anyone NOT found a way to defeat these devices? If it's electronic, there's a way to defeat/improve it. Look at Dinan -- he's built a very successful business on this one principle.

Just curious.

Brian

ET,

Actually I am pretty much let down by new Benz. Technologies used in the latest Benz are no question the top-notch stuff...but build quality is questionable. Though I still want a E55 AMG

I consider W140 the lamest amount all Mercedes when talking about performance, yet, I haven't experienced any hood flapping at all. Lee suggested that the Aero-Plate might be missing, it's one possibility. Now any others??

Brian,

Electronic Limiter can be removed by "Chip" the car, or reprogramming(which I doubt Mercedes will do as they have agreement with other German Makers)...

Andy Kuo

------------------

• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Pearl Grey/Black Leather
  

ICQ#26950002
Mercedes Owners ICQ ActiveList ID#61730549
Mercedes S-Class Page
http://drive.to/akry
http://akry.homestead.com

[This message has been edited by akry (edited 05-17-2000).]

Uhhh - Abalto - it's time to find your way back to politically correctville. I think the link is www.mbca.org

Go Lee! Last I heard, this was a site for ENTHUSIASTS, and as your posts and great support of this site demonstrate, you are a true enthusiast. Keep posting your informed, articulate thoughts. Keep the fun alive on this site.

And keep those who would bleed this good thing dry by trying to control content and opinions (pertaining to our MBZs) OUT!

Matt

makakio,

Is there any point of posting that thread??? Just curious.....

What's your thoughts about the flapping hood, then???

Andy Kuo


------------------

• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Pearl Grey/Black Leather
  

ICQ#26950002
Mercedes Owners ICQ ActiveList ID#61730549
Mercedes S-Class Page
http://drive.to/akry
http://akry.homestead.com

I don't get any hood flap at high speeds either (but my wife sure does start to flap her gums over 110...
I have experienced hood flap on other cars and found that this can be caused after an accident when the body shop fails to put the car back together in spec (missing pans, spacers, rubber bushings, etc).
As far as "Chipping" goes, I'd love to do the same only it would void the warrantee. Another option is to get another computer, chip or reprogram that and install it in your car. If you need warrantee work, swap 'em out. Renntech told me the only way to eliminate the speed limiter is to send the computer back to Germany!
Lee, I have never felt your posts were biased in any way. You call it the way you see it!
I've seen M5's on the track who were slower in the turns than M3's, but in the straight never let the M3 guy pass because the 5 is more expensive! I think if Lee was driving a 500E and guy in a VW Bug was faster, he'd let him pass. I could however, be wrong
Lee, feel like testing this theory when the MB club does Summit Point in September? I promise to let you pass on the straight!
Gary

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http://clubs.snap.com/mercedesbenze55registry/index.lhtml
00 AMG E55
96 DCM Impala SS
94 ZR-1
81 Corvette Cpe

Thanks for the support guys. That said, I don't intend "disrespect" towards the new models. Some things have changed in the whole lineup and they have been changing for years. Look at the paint on a new W220, a late W140, an early W140, and a W126 that is in top original condition. I will not comment on what you'll see as I'm confident enough that your own eyes will give you the info you need. Having owned several MB's in different vintages I'm noticing a trend of the newer cars having more problems. No matter what your opinion on quality of either materials or build one thing that is without question is that the engineering behind those materials and workmanship is as good if not better than its ever been.

As for "will tires give some of the older cars a big gain"? In my opinion yes. Both from experience and simple logic. Take the 400E for example...you have 300lb-ft of torque, 275HP, and a curb weight of over 3700lbs on tires the same size as a Honda Accord. (195/65/15) Cars with similar power, brakes, weight, etc (say an E34 or E39 540i, GS400, W210 E420/430) all have more aggressive rubber standard. Same goes for the 500E...a cars with similar power/brakes/etc all have more aggressive rubber without exception. (E55, E34 M5, E39 M5, XJR, etc) The last iteration of the 500E came with 245/45/17's as OEM so even the factory saw reason to upsize. That is the logical reasoning....then there are dragstrip times. Though not intending to slight or unduely praise one vehicle over another Michael Curcio's 92 500E with 245/45/17 rubber was simply faster than Gary's E55. Michael got a bit better launch but from there the 500E kept opening the gap. At that time, under those conditions it was faster. Re-run it at 95 degrees F, with the 500E on 225/55/16 touring rubber, and the E55 with a few more miles on the motor and things might change. When they do run again we will see.

As far as the top speed behavior...yes, a good deal of it is power curve. (aside from the aforementioned power/aero drag vs power/weight) Since both the W202 AMG's and the 500E have a .32 CD it defers to power. The C36 power curve is a bit more full from off idle to 3500rpm but seems to get a bit weak from 5000rpm on. The M119's pull pretty well off idle but seem to have a bit of a flatspot in power in the 1500rpm to 3000rpm range but pull damn hard right up to 6000rpm redline. (or 6300rpm in some cases) I have some literature that shows the dyno curves for the M119's, M104's, and M120 but I don't know of any electronic versions. If I had a scanner I'd post it...

The electronic limiters are an agreement by MB and a few other german marques to limit top speed to 155mph. "chipping" them isn't possible anymore but a dealership theoretically could remove yours but they are almost certainly not allowed to do it. The new brainboxes have to be programmed so either you take it someplace to have it programmed or ship the brainbox off. BTW, I'll wager good money that the MB electronic control systems are deliberately more complex (tamper resistant) than their BMW counterparts. Anyone else remember Mr Fehyl's headaches trying to get the V12's to go faster?

To keep on topic....the hood flap seems rather odd. If you are sure your car has never been hit or had any bodywork done then check the aero underpan and maybe latches. Beyond that, I'll defer to the wisdom of Benzmac and the other techs in Tech Help.

Lee

Just a quick question that I did not see asked. Is the hood flapping at the front, rear, or is the whole thing moving up and down (can't tell)?

I have had this problem before on several other cars and a quick adjustment of the rubber bump stops at the front corners cured the flap. Not sure if the Mercedes has the same adjustment, can anyone verify?

Also, I'm sure you checked this, but did you close the hood with enough force? It does make a difference sometimes, usually a firm pressure when closing will ensure a good solid button down. Good luck with my favorite group of people in the whole wide world, the Highway Patrol!!!

As for Lee, how could you! J/K I saw no disrespect intended, you are just informing us of what you know, this is a forum after all. Hey in my book, who ever has the fastest car has bragging rights, and you should be able to at least feel good about it, even if you have to drive a measley 60 MPH most of the time!

P.S. How can they stand giving capable people in capable cars tickets for speeding?
I mean come on!! Are we still in the 1960's?

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96 C280

[This message has been edited by roas (edited 05-18-2000).]

Hehe, that said everyone is free to express his/her opinion, Here it goes: I truely believe the AMG E is a better performer than the 500. Back in 97 I have test-drived a purple 92 E500 that had Evo 17 245 F/R & upgraded chip producing 30 more ponies than stock with only 30000 km on it. Mercedes dealer asked 75000~80000 CDN for it BTW. The car was impressive, its ride was tank like and very fast; However ,I did notice that it had siginificant bodyrolls and weak break, Nonethelss, it was impressive enough to convinced me to place an order for the E50 and than waited patiently for the E55. Althought it was so many years ago and one's perception can be misleading, almost all the maganizes I have read/collected about Es suggested that although E500 is unique, the AMG is more advance in almost every catelogry and performance is better too.

Here, I said it. So Gary, U have my 110% moral support on the next run with Michael. Add octane, remove all the unecessary stuffs including spare tire and floor matts if must; Diet and sleep well beforehand and run on minimum fuel and just put in 4 th gear & don't bother hand shift manually. Tire pressure at 36/36 (Motor Trend's 4.9 sec. set up). And bring home the victory!

P.S. Absolutely no flame intended.

Happy motoring,
ET

[This message has been edited by ET (edited 05-18-2000).]

Felt obliged to chime in...

The 500E and E55 will be bench raced for a long time to come. Not all 500Es are alike, nor are E55s, so on any given day I think either could win at the drags. At the racetrack, I'd think the E55 would be quicker given its lighter weight and bigger brakes...but we'll simply have to test this theory. Now, maybe Gary's E55 needs more break-in (I'm betting) and maybe my car's just strong for the breed (I've run 13.8 but have never read an article citing a quicker time for a stock 500E) but on that particular day mine was quicker. Remember, it was ilke 40 degrees out! We'll see what happens next time, but assuredly Gary and I will have a great time just running the beasts.

Now, as to an E55 turning in a 4.9 sec 0-60 time, MAYBE, just maybe, MBZ gave Motor Trend a hot car? Naw, couldn't happen...hehehe. If there's an E55 out there that is indeed that quick, then ANY 500E is toast.

Beyond the 1/4 mi., remember that Gary's E55 benefits from myriad improvements brought about since my car debuted WAY back in '91. And they're very different cars, and I like 'em both quite a bit. But the 500E is hardly a dinosaur as ET suggested, with variable valve timing, adaptive rear damping and ASR! And ET, I can't imaginw why you remember a 500E as having weak brakes or lots of roll; I've driven both cars and body roll is comparable, however as to brakes I'd say they produce equivalent braking power but the E55s have MUCH more boost. I can't imagine why someone would upgrade 500E binders unless they raced it A LOT. ET, I'm guessing you drove a very tired car, otherwise I can't explain your impressions.

On the original topic, no hood flap on either of my cars (500E doesn't waver at 150+, and my 300TE's good to about 115 before it runs out of steam big-time!); I'm thinking the rubber bumpers intended to hold it in place are missing or misaligned.

------------------
Best regards, Michael
'92 500E
'88 300TE

Hi Michael,

I think u made a fair statement, there are variations in every car and Performance figure only offers a general idea. as my cousin(an "UN"professional race car driver) use to said, 1 sec difference in performance difference can always be compensanted.

As for my impression of the 500, it was simply a great car and earned my respect right after I set my foot in it( who am I kidding, just its masculine look earned my admiration). Bodyroll is not excessive and I think I used the wrong word(sorry about it). I remember testing its cornering in all D, 3rd & 2nd gear and somehow got that impression. I think it was because I made a comparasion to its superb forward ability. And that I have read European Cars that quoted the factory figure of the new AMG cutting 15% body roll off the previous 500 limited. Braking maybe due to excessive wear as Michael suggested caused I remembered worring about not being able to stop as quickly as it built up speed so quickly.

I think another way to look at it is that its forward moving ability in my opinion outshined its braking & cornering.

Since we already had so many praises about the 500, and that I'm a AMG owner, I just can't help but to dent its reputation a bit(haha) and this might affect my choices of wording as well.

P.S. No flapping for me & 00 body kit makes the car feeling more stable than the 99.

Happy motoring,

ET


[This message has been edited by ET (edited 05-18-2000).]

AMG or 500E or what not, we are bunch of lucky ppl on Earth, gathering together, and share information.

Lee has always made very good comments and give plenty of information. How ppl see him as "disrespect" to other cars is beyond me. All I can say to those ppl is, well, nothing actually... Lee, Michael, ET, Eric, Gary, Brian, Chris, and bunch other ppl all have one of the best looking MBs out there, so I think they deserve the cars for their hard work, and they derserve the right to brag..PERIOD.

Andy Kuo

------------------

• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Pearl Grey/Black Leather
  

ICQ#26950002
Mercedes Owners ICQ ActiveList ID#61730549
Mercedes S-Class Page
http://drive.to/akry
http://akry.homestead.com

The flap I was getting other day while driving with a strong crosswind wasn't so much a rapid front-back up-and-down oscillation. It was as if the wind at that speed was lifting the hood from the side and creating the flap. Strange, as the hood alignment (gaps and height) are flush and even. I could only surmise that in my occurrence it was created by air spilling into the engine bay (from where I don't know) and actually lifting the hood on that edge from the underside. I'm puzzled further by the fact that the front wheel wells look fairly well sealed and the car has a pan under the engine compartment.

Perhaps it's just as well. Going *really* fast in strong crosswinds is probably not too intelligent an idea anyway...